TubeNet

Hey all.

I've been meaning to pick up a bass tuba for chamber/solo rep for some time now, but there have been a few questions that've constantly been on my mind. Seeing as many of you have been playing for longer than I've been alive, I thought I'd pop in for your more seasoned opinions on buying a bass tuba.

Quick note: I agree that the player is the biggest determining factor behind sound, technique, etc, but I'd argue the horn does still make a tonal and/or slight method difference, even if it's not huge. Basically, some horns just facilitate good sound and technique and that's what I'm mostly interested in here.

A big question I'd been considering after talking with a private teacher was simply the distinction between buying a cheaper model put out by Wessex, JP, Mack, etc versus saving up for a bit longer and finding a tried and true Germanic/American "brand" model from Miraphone, B&S, MW, etc (mostly referring to the mainstream models like the Miraphone 181 instead of the 180). Obviously, without intentionally disparaging the effort, quality, and love put into the surprisingly good cheaper Chinese factory models, I'd argue that the much more expensive Firebirds and PT10s of the world are much better for playing and performing long term. As my teacher put it, I'm likely eventually going to upgrade from one of the "budget" horns, so why not start learning on the horn at the start without having to learn a different horn and dealing with all the hassle of selling and upgrading? However, they're going to be a greater initial investment that may be a bit difficult to financially justify without having a huge need for it.

That being said, it leads into the point of the resale market. The newer horns have a much less proven resale market while well-kept "brand" horns seem to depreciate only with condition instead of time (which isn't to mention that they're generally of a much better build quality from personal and anecdotal experience). Used brand horns tend to have a set resale value where they're almost a guaranteed sell, where you can buy a used Bel Canto for 6-7 grand and sell it for just as much within a few months, while the new market horns seem to depreciate with time. I may be completely off on that, but I guess that's why I'm here.

The other big question was just about the market for those brand models I was referring to earlier: what would necessarily be a good "deal" price on those models? I know there's a wild variation on horn pricing with individual situations and the horns themselves, but generally, when you consider a good deal on a mainstream Germanic horn, around what ballpark do you consider?

Also, thank you for your time and help. Clearly, I'm not as experienced as many of you Tubenetters, but there's just a lot of rhetoric and questioning I've got in my mind as I try to finally get into the other half of the tuba world.

There’s also a nice Meinl Weston recently listed that is a characteristic F tuba.

I’d after that if budget allows, “buy once cry once”, is a decent philosophy.

The biggest obstacle for most people with F tuba is trying them out with oversized mouthpieces and playing them like contrabass tubas.

Matt G wrote:The biggest obstacle for most people with F tuba is trying them out with oversized mouthpieces and playing them like contrabass tubas.

If you can afford a new chinese made clone of an European/American instrument, it's not unlikely that you can also afford a used one of the original. Many people overlook that fact. Some of these instruments are tried and tested workhorses, and will serve you well for as long as you wish. That may of course be the case for a Chinese clone, but it's not certain.

If I were buying blank, I'd look for something that pros are happy to play. As it happens, one of the top ones of those, B&S Symphonie, happens to be for sale in the for sale section here, sold by TJ Ricer. I have nothing to do with Mr Ricer or the sale, but I have a 5v version of the same instrument, and it's sooo good. His looks in good nick and is offered at an attractive price. This is also the instrument the PT-15 is based on, but somehow the old one is just better. If in doubt, look no further than the video library of the Berlin Phil, where Mr von Puttkamer plays a Symphonie for all the small tuba repertoire.

I'd snap that one up without a shadow of a doubt

olaness1 wrote:If I were buying blank, I'd look for something that pros are happy to play. As it happens, one of the top ones of those, B&S Symphonie, happens to be for sale in the for sale section here, sold by TJ Ricer. I have nothing to do with Mr Ricer or the sale, but I have a 5v version of the same instrument, and it's sooo good. His looks in good nick and is offered at an attractive price. This is also the instrument the PT-15 is based on, but somehow the old one is just better. If in doubt, look no further than the video library of the Berlin Phil, where Mr von Puttkamer plays a Symphonie for all the small tuba repertoire.

Doc wrote:I finally have a Symphonie, and it is a wonderful tuba. I’m not sure why you would want to hear me play it, but you can hear that exact tuba in recordings (recent history) of the Berlin Radio Symphony.
Bloke has one for his personal F tuba. Btw, that piston F he is selling is a really good tuba. I also have an excellent F tuba for sale. I don’t know how many different F tubas you have tried, but if there are any players in your area that would let you test their F tubas, that might be helpful.

I've heard only good things about that horn, but sadly I just don't have the money available at this point to justify a trip to Hawaii on top of potentially buying the horn. If (and when) I ever get all the funds available to go ahead and go for it, I'll be sure to try it out, especially with all the extra resources you've graciously supplied me with (thank you!). I'm already expecting to wait at bare minimum a year or two to financially get in a place where I can buy the horn and still be completely stable, and during that time I'm probably going to see if I can break the world record for F tuba demos to get a feel for the instrument and what I like in a horn.

Thanks so much for your time and your help!

Matt G wrote:There’s also a nice Meinl Weston recently listed that is a characteristic F tuba.

I’d after that if budget allows, “buy once cry once”, is a decent philosophy.

The biggest obstacle for most people with F tuba is trying them out with oversized mouthpieces and playing them like contrabass tubas.

I actually had the opposite issue starting on a Germanic C horn where I was trying to force everything through an undersized mouthpiece, so hopefully I've got enough experience with both the slow/full approach and the more direct approach to at least sound passable on a F horn.

If you don't mind me asking, assuming you're talking about the MW 46, how does it compare to other horns? I'm pretty new to the world of older F horns, but the few things I've heard about cheaper, older horns is that they require a lot more effort to achieve the same results as other horns (like how the 180 is sort of rough around the edges, especially with a stuffy low register).

bloke wrote:Buy the part-vintage-German and part-Chinese and put-together-by-me piston F tuba that I've recently bumped in the "Sponsors" section, and be done with it...or not.

bloke "You need the tuba, I need the money, and it's not crap."

When I eventually get everything in order and get the money in place, I'd love to drive by and demo/maybe buy that horn; it looks amazing, and your craftsmanship is outstanding. That being said, seeing as I'm back to square zero on the F tuba savings by helping out with a family emergency that came up literal hours after posting, I'm certain that by the time I have the liberty to buy the horn, someone else will have already snapped it up.

Still though, the horn itself looks wonderful, and the specs you've put sound equally great.

Cyrilee wrote:

Matt G wrote:There’s also a nice Meinl Weston recently listed that is a characteristic F tuba.

I’d after that if budget allows, “buy once cry once”, is a decent philosophy.

The biggest obstacle for most people with F tuba is trying them out with oversized mouthpieces and playing them like contrabass tubas.

I actually had the opposite issue starting on a Germanic C horn where I was trying to force everything through an undersized mouthpiece, so hopefully I've got enough experience with both the slow/full approach and the more direct approach to at least sound passable on a F horn.

If you don't mind me asking, assuming you're talking about the MW 46, how does it compare to other horns? I'm pretty new to the world of older F horns, but the few things I've heard about cheaper, older horns is that they require a lot more effort to achieve the same results as other horns (like how the 180 is sort of rough around the edges, especially with a stuffy low register).

I can’t speak for that horn, but I’d expect a PT-10-ish sound. It’s probably a fairly “stuffy” horn compared to modern F tubas.

Before you buy an F tuba, make sure you play it. It does not matter what country the horn came from or how old it is.

From personal experience, I want a good low C-B-Bb and a reasonably good overtone series when I play a horn for the first time.

I hear guys "play testing" F tubas on pedal tones. While fun to be able to rip a pedal C, that's not where the most music is played. If the middle two octaves work for you, you can learn to play the rest of the horn.

For what it's worth, I have to disagree on the point of needing a good C-B-Bb when playing first time. Both of my F tubas had awful C-B-Bbs when I first tried them, and those notes only became nice once I'd put some work in and practised it. Particularly if you are coming from CC or Bb, those notes will feel weird and sound thin on most F tubas and will need work.

It’s kinda funny that the typical F tuba quirks like the low C get a lot of flack, but when some of these giant CC tubas come along with some “off” characteristics around low G, they are deemed acceptable because of “the sound” and the player just needs time to accommodate the difference in playing styles.

The best deals I've ever seen or benefitted from in F tubas have been used B&S models with the Symphonie profile (one was a true Symphonie, and the other is a PT-9, but has exactly the same dimensions as a Symphonie, but doesn't have the hand-hammered bottom bow and bell). Both played so well that I could not decide between them for a couple of weeks of intense comparison. I finally kept the six-valve "PT-9". But the point is: both were about the price, used and in good playing but not perfect cosmetic condition, of the current crop of good Chinese tubas. And both are already used, and already depreciated.

Buying a tuba is not a holy sacrament like marriage. A future parting is not "divorce". A tuba is a tool. Buy the best one you can afford, and learn it. When (if) it no longer fulfills your requirements, sell it and get a new one.

Regarding the low C, if I no longer feel the weirdness of the low C, as a second-rate amateur, I don't know why anyone contemplating a professional career should be afraid of it. I suspect that anyone who can manage a low C on a B&S can manage a low C on, say, a Yamaha. Getting that lovely singing tone in the middle and upper register, though, is not something those great-low-C F tubas seem to be able to do. Or, doing so is even more difficult than learning how to blow that low C.

TLDR: buy an old, used B&S Symphonie/PT-9 and play it with commitment. When you are ready to move on, sell it for what you paid for it. Nothing about playing that instrument well will be wasted effort on the next instrument.

Rick "who paid less for BOTH of those B&S F tubas than the price of ONE lovely new Miraphone, by a healthy margin" Denney