Jazz. Where do i begin?

[RyanSchultz]

Listen to a lot of jazz and then imitate what you hear.

Yesterday I had the pleasure of teaching three teenage tuba players C jam Blues and they each took their first (tuba) solo. I just played, very briefly discussed the "blues scale," and they copied me--it took less than fifteen minutes. I played bass lines.

I would start with listening and then find a group to play with.

Good luck.

[windshieldbug]

I think you should do BOTH what bloke and RyanSchultz have suggested. Jazz is like learning a language; to do it well, you will have to speak (play) and understand what you are hearing, and pick up idioms. Take small steps in all of these directions.

To PLAY, you need to conceptualize and perform what you are thinking of. Start with simple, familiar tunes like bloke mentioned.

LISTEN to everything you can, for your horn or not. As you progress, it will start to make sense.

As for IDIOMS, there are plenty of methods that will drill you on any aspect and form you are interested in; ask in places like this AND find a teacher if you can. There are differences in Dixieland, Modern, etc. and also techniques you can use on a bass line. Learn to read chords.

AND ABOVE ALL, LIGHTEN UP AND HAVE FUN!!

[ThomasP]

The best advice I can give is to listen. Did Louis Armstrong or any of the other greats have a book? Like and master the style and phrasing. The style of jazz in regards to phrasing and rhythm are things that you can only learn, in my opinion, by listening. I won't say anything else because others have already covered the subject pretty well.

[Dutch]

Play along with jazz pieces you are familiar with, record what you are playing, then listen to what you have recorded. This is a horrifying experience in the beginning, a quick way to learn however. Also: jazz=chords, there is no way you can play jazz without being familiar with chords.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I have to agree with Bloke on this one. Listening is important, but listening/imitating by itself is not enough. Think of a painter with only two or three colors on his palette trying to reproduce a Picasso painting - you could do it, and it might even be very good, but it could never be as inspiring as the original because the interest of the subtle colors wouldn't be there.

Scales and technique are your colors when improvising. You must have a mastery of your instrument - if you are fumbling with technique, you are a step behind in the game. Don't neglect your basic technique-building practice to concentrate on improv - you should be thinking the other way around! Build your technique to BE a better improviser. If you have to think about patterns in E mixolydian, you're going to have a hard time playing on the fly. The resource books are endless - grab some and start practicing patterns, just like pianists do when they are mastering their technique.

Rich Matteson was a great example - he learned every tune he could in all twelve keys - that by itself gave him a huge palette of "licks" to use. Start recognizing patterns that evolve in different keys (especially ii/V relationships). Get the Jamey Abersold CD's and play with them - it doesn't matter how you sound at first - this is the work you do to get better at improvising.

Jaco Pastorius, the great jazz bassist, used to talk about learning to play melodies on the bass - this applies well to tuba as well. We don't often get much melodic material in our everyday ensemble work as tubists. Try just playing simple melodies in all keys to broaden your "palette" - it will help when your ready to fly without a net.

Best of luck to you, and remember - just play jazz as much as possible. Learn some jazz keyboard skills when your chops are tired (lots of books for this as well) - it will translate to and help your jazz playing on the horn. It's frustrating at first, I know, but it will come eventually. Be patient!!!

[UDELBR]

Rich Matteson was a great example - he learned every tune he could in all twelve keys - that by itself gave him a huge palette of "licks" to use.

I understand that Rich had to formalize and codify a way to teach folks how to play jazz, but he turned out a lot of players who would always fall back on those pre-chewed licks instead of reaching way down and creating something themselves. It's the natural result of practicing 100 licks in 12 keys, but you can't really refer to that as improvisation. And although you can create the illusion of being a really burning player, this method ultimately mutes one's own creativity.

Joe said it right: can you play any melody on your axe in all 12 keys, flawlessly?

[tubeast]

I´m not sure about this, ´cause I don´t play Jazz, but I do chime in with others (instruments / singers) to accompany them, and you never know in advance what key a singer will start at.

Why restrict yourself on playing tunes in 12 keys?
How about transforming from minor to major and back?
How about the 7 modi (?modae?) you can derive from major scales?

I heard a pianist jokingly transform common melodies from major to minor and back. It was interesting and funny (at times) to hear the alterations.

[OldBandsman]

About Bloke's comments.....

"The preliminary skills to being able to play jazz are the skills of being able to play the melodies of familiar songs - from simple to complex, and do be able to do so in all .........."


My mentor for learning traditional jazz tells me to learn the words to the songs as well as the melody.

And when I begin to sound half way decent he takes away the lead sheet.....

John

[UDELBR]

I would suspect simply because I play jazz on the tuba, rather than with a sax, trumpet, or trombone.

I've heard Howard Johnson say that people's appreciation of jazz tuba is like the talking dog: it's not that what it says is so profound, but that it talks at all.

[Arkietuba]

For me, jazz was just in me. I played trombone before I picked up the tuba and I all ways messes around on the trombone just trying to make up stuff. In 10th grade I started "learning" improv and it was hard at first b/c I wasn't instructed very well. So, a few days later when we had a big jam session w/ all of the guys trying out for jazz band and my turn came up. I was fairly shy so I kinda hated improv but, I just decided to let out what I wanted to play and it turned out to be Wycliffe Gordon-esque. My band director was getting in to it and noddin' his head and my friends said that it was the coolest thing that they ever heard. So I think jazz isn't something that you neccesarily learn as much as it is a part of you.

[Monty]

I think most of whats been said is good- skills arent the same as art and the more modal/scale knowledge you have the better. My own horrible weakness at those things continues to hold me back.
The only thing I would add is that- if youre a good reader already and you know your scales etc- do what bloke said- but take his advice AFTER youve gone round accompanying a few records.
Also - learn the blues- not just the scale- that takes about 20 minutes- but learn the breaks- and learn the rhythms- put on a swing beat and make sure you can reconcile every phrase to whatever swing you got going on- thats the best kept 'secret'.
jazz is black music- and the reason black guys sound so loose is because they tend to be completely anal about what they have going underneath it all.
You can always tell a jazzer who skipped the blues because he thought they were too simple etc. They arent. Also - knowing the words helps with phrasing and motivic ( did I spell that right?) development.
After youve got the rhythm and the melodies at a good place
go ahead with what bloke said and youll be a monster. In my experience it seems that most folks get half the equation and for schooled guys its always the rhythm that comes up short.

... God, Id think with all this ' glib advice Im ladling I wouldnt suck so bad....

[Dylan King]

Jazz is just palying what is in ones head. If you can scat and sing along, and you have control of your instrument, you can improvise. I'm not a big believer in the way colleges teach jass these days. Learning every chord and every lick will just allow one to sound like ever other jazz artist. Jazz is listening and creating within the sound spectrum that one is listening to.

I have always just done it by ear. Never had a problem. Letting go and letting it flow will make your jazz grow.

And don't forget about rhythm. It's all about the beat, man.

[Stefan Kac]

As a tubaist, I think there are a couple of things you should insist on. If there's a bass player playing along, get him/her out of the way! When you're soloing, you ARE the bass. Two bass instruments just muddy up the works, and make you sound all the more silly. This is a common, common error of jazz improv classes. Also, get the piano player to comp up higher, as though he/she were comping the bass player.

Not to say this can't be a problem in some instances, but I have to take exception overall. I've never found this to be nearly as much as a problem as most people make it out to be. Perhaps this is because I mostly play in a pretty boppy style that rarely dips into the low range, but I've found the issue of tessitura and balance to be trumped by the issue of texture. In other words, if the bass sound blends suitably with the rhythm section sound, and the rhythm section is underneath the tuba dynamically, it will not get in your way. If you don't believe me, record yourself playing along with an Aebersold CD (where the rhythm section is always perfectly balanced). I think you'll find you can do almost whatever you want. Obviously, this is a highly idealized situation and you will not be able to count on it working out every time in performance. Electric bass is certainly a very problematic instrument, and I avoid playing with one at all costs. Again, it is an issue of texture. Then again, listen to the MJT project, who used an electric bass on their first CD. It works fine. And of course, Gravity uses a full rhythm section too (usually upright bass).

And what you said about there being no wrong notes is spot on. If the theory mongers ever get on your case, just whip out this trusty little anecdote:

Acceptable scale substitutions over a C7 chord:
mixolydian: c-d-e-f-g-a-Bb-c
this omits the notes Db, Eb, F#, Ab, and B, which can be found in other substitutions:
diminished: Db, Eb, F#
dim.-whole tone: Ab
bebop: B (yes, a technicality, but for the sake of the argument...)

[tubajoe]

Wow, lots of dancing about architecture here...

Dont analyze things so much... there is no formula (unless you like formulaic things, then that's cool)

It's like this: If you want to be a sideman/knowitall, then learn all the old tunes you can find. If a certain style, era, or hero worship floats your boat, then learn what's appropriate to that.

But I would not call replication "jazz". (although many would say it is)

If you want to play, experiment and find your voice. Dare to do that. Play what sounds good to YOU and forget what pretenses are there.
It's an extremely personal thing -- you have to look inside yourself.

How do you do it? You pick up the horn and play it.


I dont mean to sound pretentious, but dont look for mathematical formulas or pre-packaged answers -- you gotta just jump on in, you wont see what it is about until you go through that (lifelong) process.

I think that's true for pretty much any style of music.


Dare to be yourself!



joe
NYC

[Monty]

That sounds real good Joe- but youre a cat who knows all the **** that your telling him not to bother with.
Ive done what you tell him to do for years- and its not enough.

The vitriolic fella makes at least one good point- finding another instrumentalist helps a lot.

replication of attitude and goal is indeed jazz- and that can apply to historical to avant garde.

There is a formula - and it will work- that is - to take everyones advice on a different day- thatll work.

Probably a good rejoinder to the question would have been- what kind of jazz are you wanting to learn?

[BopEuph]

These may be good and honest answers, but the truth of the matter is everyone here is trying to give advice of an art of sound over a text messaging forum. There are only a few answers that I believe are the best advice I can agree to, and they are:

1. Listen, listen, and listen some more. Immerse yourself in jazz. Buy as many CDs as you can afford. Go to jazz clubs. Find friends who have bootleg recordings (ones that were never released on albums, of course) and burn/copy them. Listen in the car. Listen in your sleep. But more than just listen, PAY ATTENTION to the music (well, I guess that can't happen in your sleep). Rather than have it as ambient sound, make it a center of study. Learn each solo on each tune. Sing them back. This is the beginning of learning how to properly transcribe a solo.

~Little tip: Make sure you know what you're buying when shopping for a CD. Because of great ignorance at such places, anything is labeled as jazz. I'm sure everyone understands that. I remember right after Titanic came out, I heard many people that I knew were getting into classical music. When I asked them what their favorite piece was, they told me it was the instrumental version of "My Heart Will Go On." So watch what you buy. I'll give you two suggestions for recordings to start on:

Miles Davis: Kind of Blue
Dexter Gordon: Go

Kind of Blue is considered modal jazz, but it is where the vast majority of jazzers start with. You will even hear some players later quote this album (quoting is a completely valid form of improv, if done tastefully; these musicians aren't trying to "sound like" any of the musicians on the album, they are making music). Go is a great bop album, and the second album many players turn to. This should start you on your way. Although it may not be the style you are looking to play, they give all the basic lessons to jazz. Many musicians, no matter what style or instrument still listen to Pablo Casals. Why? Because he played amazing music. You can use that in any style.

2. Meet and get to know jazzers. Go to the jazz clubs, and meet the musicians. Hang out and make friends with these type of guys. Finding a good teacher also falls under this piece of advice. Since jazz tubists are not a dime a dozen, you'll probably have to look for another instrumentalist. That's ok, since jazz is the same whether it's on the tuba, trumpet, or kazoo. While many guys may not let you play in a club with them right away, if you find nice enough guys, they will let you do a jam with them in a basement, or at an open mic session. Pick their brains during lunch. Ask questions. This is how one learns. Learning jazz from a live person is much better than learning over text messages. The right person can coach you in the right direction.

3. SHED. SHED. SHED. And when you think you've had enough, shed some more, because you are just getting started. Although improvisation is spontaneous, it's still a form of composition. You have to work at it. The first two pieces of advice are also forms of practice, as is anything that helps you improve. Also, learning piano skills will make your learning much faster. Although this is the shortest piece of advice, it's the most important. There isn't much argument or explaining to do over this one, other than this: it works.

4. A jazz musician has a thorough understanding of harmony and rhythm. Yes, the chromatic scale can be used on every chord, but you have to understand the function and sound of EVERY note in the chord. Learn that chords and scales are one in the same. Scales ARE the way to go. However, don't play them like a scale excercise. Go to any classical piece and analyze the harmony. The melody is a based on a scale that is within the chord in that bar/space. Shed as many scales that you can find. There are more than just the major/minor scales (modes are the same as the scales, just start on a different pitch). Find scale books that include these other scales. Learning them will give you a dexterity on the horn you never thought possible. One of the best books to have is "The Jazz Language" by Dan Hearle. It's a small book that has literally tons of information. You can get it from anyone who sells the Abersold books.

I noticed that you are from New Jersey. Surely there are clubs near your area. If you are right across from New York City, then great! If you're closer to Philly, I'm sure there would be a good deal of jazz there, too. A good friend of mine just moved up there to finish his undergrad as a jazz drummer. He is a killin' drummer, and a wicked nice guy. If I find out anything about where he's playing, I'll post it here.

Nick

[Donn]

[quote="Andrew Baker"]I would like to know how i should go about learning jazz. Is it as simple as just listening or is there literature I can get that is specifically for tuba players.

Interesting that everyone answers with advice about improvised solos. Not to be narrow minded about it, but isn't the tuba principally a bass? Why would there even be a string bass to get in the way?

Seriously, I've heard tubas taking the horn role in jazz bands, and those who can make it work deserve a lot of credit, but it seems to me that a tuba player would do better to learn jazz starting from the bass line.

Of course that's still normally an improvisational exercise. I'm not so brilliant at it that I should be teaching others, but one thing I'd suggest is to learn something like piano or guitar, anything you can use to play chords and get an ear for them.

[Donn]

The one or two jazz improvising classes I have been in, I've taken my saxophone, but if I ever show up with a tuba -- when I'm playing, the rhythm section will absolutely be chugging along, because I AM THE RHYTHM SECTION!

But my point is not about how this works when we step up for a solo, but that there's a whole lot to learn about this bass line business that should be, I would think, the principal preoccupation of tuba players. Way before we start transcribing solos.

Of course everyone has their own priorities, but for me, that's why I want to play the tuba -- it's just the best bass for a loud but acoustic situation -- and frankly it's a little hard to see what else it's good for.

The scary thing about tuba as a jazz bass is that in most parts of the country it means you go to Dixieland, which can get old really fast. But if you get good players together, they can go as far from there as from the Miles stuff you play in jazz improv classes. Personally, for me, jazz with a tuba bass may be older, but the Miles stuff is staler. Casual street parades with some very sophisticated jazz players have been among my peak musical experiences.