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How do Kelly mouthpieces fair if they become stuck in the receiver and require a mouthpiece puller to extract them? Are they durable enough to withstand this, or is there a chance they would crack &/or shatter?



(I was asked this earlier today, and had no reliable answer to give the educator that was considering them.)

JB wrote:How do Kelly mouthpieces fair if they become stuck in the receiver and require a mouthpiece puller to extract them? Are they durable enough to withstand this, or is there a chance they would crack &/or shatter?



(I was asked this earlier today, and had no reliable answer to give the educator that was considering them.)

This is a very interesting question. I am anxious to hear what the answer is. I do not own one, nor do I intend to buy one for myself. However, I can see the value of purchasing one for marching band students.

My mouthpiece puller uses gradual pressure, which I suspect would not cause a problem with a Kelly mouthpiece, although I have no first hand experience.

I expect that it would be very unlikely for a Kelly mouthpiece to actually get stuck unless left in a horn for weeks. This is because most of the stuck mouthpieces that I have dealt with have had some type of damage to the shank that caused it to be out of round, which made it not fit in the receiver properly. Also, a plastic to metal "connection" seems to me to be much less likely to form a tight bond than a metal to metal connection.

Lew wrote:My mouthpiece puller uses gradual pressure, which I suspect would not cause a problem with a Kelly mouthpiece, although I have no first hand experience.

I expect that it would be very unlikely for a Kelly mouthpiece to actually get stuck unless left in a horn for weeks. This is because most of the stuck mouthpieces that I have dealt with have had some type of damage to the shank that caused it to be out of round, which made it not fit in the receiver properly. Also, a plastic to metal "connection" seems to me to be much less likely to form a tight bond than a metal to metal connection.

All of this makes good sense to me, except for being out of round. I have seen perfectly round(at least new, anyway) mouthpieces be persuaded to get stuck. Some students have a unique talent in this area.

One can always melt the thing off.

schlepporello wrote:I only have 6 Kellybergs if I remember correctly. None of them have ever gotten stuck.In my opinion, something would first have to cause some corrosive adhesion between the Lexan and the metal receiver first for that to happen. I don't see that as a possibility.

Yeah, what he ^ said..

Mine never got stuck. The plastic just won't rust to the receiver, and it's flexible enough that it'll pop out.

I should be getting a first-run PT50 version in a few days, too.

The only experience I have with removing a stuck Kelly mouthpiece was one that was actually broken off in the receiver. I simply stuck a three-point scraper into the remaining part and gave it a little twist. I was prepared to drill it out but it wasn't necessary.

I would expect that a Kelly could be pulled with any ordinary MP puller. I think the Lexan would probably stretch and actually get a dab smaller as pressure was applied.

Lew wrote:I expect that it would be very unlikely for a Kelly mouthpiece to actually get stuck unless left in a horn for weeks. This is because most of the stuck mouthpieces that I have dealt with have had some type of damage to the shank that caused it to be out of round, which made it not fit in the receiver properly. Also, a plastic to metal "connection" seems to me to be much less likely to form a tight bond than a metal to metal connection.

schlepporello wrote:None of them have ever gotten stuck.In my opinion, something would first have to cause some corrosive adhesion between the Lexan and the metal receiver first for that to happen. I don't see that as a possibility.

I agree with both of your posts, but the one aspect that hasn't been addressed is that these would be in the possession of younger players (such as late elementary school and early junior high).

Rather than a corrosion-induced sticking in the receiver, I think the instructor was wondering what would happen if they were bumped and some force caused them to become stuck there. (You know, kids hitting the mp with their hands to create the “funâ€

Any further input? (a.k.a 'bump')


Thanks
JB

I could sacrifice one of mine to see what would happen..

I don't know about the puller, but I imagine hot water would be usefull. The metal will not cool as fast as the plastic, and help them seperate. Becarefull of the lacquer though.

Anyone ask Kelly about this?

ThomasDodd wrote:I don't know about the puller, but I imagine hot water would be usefull. The metal will not cool as fast as the plastic, and help them seperate. Becarefull of the lacquer though.

Anyone ask Kelly about this?

As far as which part will cool first and which material has the highest coeficient of expansion is way too scientific to put into a couple of words.

A mouthpiece puller in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is the only safe way to remove a stuck mouthpiece.

How about a stuck slide? I have an embarrassingly stuck 1st valve slide on the Bb side of my horn. It's just gooked-up tuning slide grease, but I can't budge it. Fortunately it is stuck in the position I want it to be in, but still, it's embarrassing on that quality of horn to have a stuck slide. How do I get it out? There is not a repair person in this town whom I trust to touch this horn.

MA

MaryAnn wrote:How about a stuck slide? I have an embarrassingly stuck 1st valve slide on the Bb side of my horn. It's just gooked-up tuning slide grease, but I can't budge it. Fortunately it is stuck in the position I want it to be in, but still, it's embarrassing on that quality of horn to have a stuck slide. How do I get it out? There is not a repair person in this town whom I trust to touch this horn. MA

Sorry MA... but stuck slides enter into the same catagory as stuck mouthpieces. If you exert too much pressure trying to remove a stuck slide, it can cause severe damage to the adjacent tubing and even distort the valve casings (either rotors or pistons). Sometimes a sharp pull is better than lots of pressure. Depending on the situation, I often put a strip of cloth through the slide crook and give the slide a mild 'jerk'.... making certain the adjacent tubing is supported and the pull is in the straight-line direction of the slide tubes. On an F horn this can be difficult because of the way the crooks are made, but often there is room to put the strip of cloth through at a brace. A qualified technician would probably have a special tool that grips the slide at the ferrule. The tool is then tapped to move the slide. Severely stuck slides can be a real problem... sometimes resulting in having to disassemble the slide in order to remove one leg at a time. Wish there was a simple answer to your question. Are you in Tucson? Mark might have a big hammer behind the counter

MaryAnn wrote:How about a stuck slide? I have an embarrassingly stuck 1st valve slide on the Bb side of my horn. It's just gooked-up tuning slide grease, but I can't budge it. Fortunately it is stuck in the position I want it to be in, but still, it's embarrassing on that quality of horn to have a stuck slide. How do I get it out? There is not a repair person in this town whom I trust to touch this horn.

MA

Often, simply warming the slide will soften the slide grease enough for you to pull the slide loose. I lightly play a torch over the slide I want to loosen to warm it up but you may want to try a hair dryer.

Or you could simply leave your horn out in what must surely be the blazing Arizona sun this time of year...

ThomasDodd wrote:...Anyone ask Kelly about this?

Yes, I did ask him, and I don't think he would mind me sharing the e-mail reply that I received.

Jim Kelly wrote: Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: stuck Kelly mouthpieces

Hi ***,
Actually, the dis-similar material (unlike brass in brass) tends not to get stuck. If the mouthpiece is tight - the best is to just use a quick twist & pull. Out of the thousands of mouthpieces that we've shipped - I think we've had four returned broken & we replaced them! (That's why I say "virtually" unbreakable...tell a high-schooler that something is unbreakable and, well...)
Thanks!
Jim.

KELLY MOUTHPIECES
Bringing COLOR to Music!
674 South Pioneer Road
Fond du Lac, WI 54935-9190
U.S.A.
ph 920-922-9888
fx 920-922-7308

I remain curious, however, about the result of the pressure exerted by the mouthpiece puller on the "stuck" Kelly mnouthpiece. Will it withstand the pressure, or does it break?

JB wrote: I remain curious, however, about the result of the pressure exerted by the mouthpiece puller on the "stuck" Kelly mnouthpiece. Will it withstand the pressure, or does it break?

It's not really a question of "will it break", but rather "how tightly does it have to be stuck in order for it to break rather than budge. Given the smoothness of the material, and its flexibility, and its strength, I doubt seriously whether you could jam one in tightly enough to break it while trying to remove it.

Well, that is unless you run a screw through mouthpiece, leadpipe and all...
_______________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks the bottom line answer is "if a Kelly MP gets stuck, it's worth a shot to use the MP puller."

JB wrote:I remain curious, however, about the result of the pressure exerted by the mouthpiece puller on the "stuck" Kelly mnouthpiece. Will it withstand the pressure, or does it break? :?:

I think you may need to read between the lines, your question doesn't have an answer from the vast professionals, educators, and repair people of TubeNet, because, it appears no one has ever had a stuck Kelly.

So, I would conclude, you'll never need to use a puller if you use Kelly mouthpieces. Even in a school environment.

As a side note Lexan = polycarbonate= bullet resistant, a very strong plastic.

Bob Mosso wrote:

JB wrote:I remain curious, however, about the result of the pressure exerted by the mouthpiece puller on the "stuck" Kelly mnouthpiece. Will it withstand the pressure, or does it break?

I think you may need to read between the lines, your question doesn't have an answer from the vast professionals, educators, and repair people of TubeNet, because, it appears no one has ever had a stuck Kelly.

So, I would conclude, you'll never need to use a puller if you use Kelly mouthpieces. Even in a school environment.

As a side note Lexan = polycarbonate= bullet resistant, a very strong plastic.

Your logic sounds faulty to me. Simply because something has never happened in the past does not guarantee it won't occur in the future. Since no one seems to have any experience with a Kelly mouthpiece being stuck, it does sound as if it is not a regular occurence. We have to remember that not all tuba players(and euphonium people) have ever even seen one, muchless own one. I would prefer to wait for the anecdotal evidence come in over the next few years before I draw too many conclusions.

By the way, I offer up the fact that I have a student or two who have never seen a Kelly mouthpiece. If these kids are ever within 100 yds. of one, it WILL get stuck. I am certain of this!

TubaRay wrote:

Bob Mosso wrote:

JB wrote:I remain curious, however, about the result of the pressure exerted by the mouthpiece puller on the "stuck" Kelly mnouthpiece. Will it withstand the pressure, or does it break?

I think you may need to read between the lines, your question doesn't have an answer from the vast professionals, educators, and repair people of TubeNet, because, it appears no one has ever had a stuck Kelly.

So, I would conclude, you'll never need to use a puller if you use Kelly mouthpieces. Even in a school environment.

As a side note Lexan = polycarbonate= bullet resistant, a very strong plastic.

Your logic sounds faulty to me. Simply because something has never happened in the past does not guarantee it won't occur in the future. Since no one seems to have any experience with a Kelly mouthpiece being stuck, it does sound as if it is not a regular occurence. We have to remember that not all tuba players(and euphonium people) have ever even seen one, muchless own one. I would prefer to wait for the anecdotal evidence come in over the next few years before I draw too many conclusions.

By the way, I offer up the fact that I have a student or two who have never seen a Kelly mouthpiece. If these kids are ever within 100 yds. of one, it WILL get stuck. I am certain of this!

Some of the posters are really making waaaaay too much of a fuss over this issue. I had a baritone horn come in a couple of weeks ago with a Kelly broken off in the receiver. The kid said he dropped the horn. Whatever kept the receiver/leadpipe from being damaged is well beyond my comprehension. However... stuck as the remaining shank was, it came right out after I drove a three-point scraper into the shank and gave it a little twist. I am totally confident that the plastic mouthpieces are not going to get stuck beyond using current pulling methods. Even if they did break for some reason (don't really think they will)... they will still be a heck of lot easier to get out than a brass MP. Some of the really nice characteristics of Lexan is that it is quite slippery, reasonably inert, doesn't have any weird dielectric properties, and does not corrode.

This thread is rapidly becoming an example of one of those obnoxious 'pet peeve' posts that is mentioned elsewhere on the TubeNet. Now.... go practice and don't worry about it!