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I bought the ZO 5000 “YorkaZo” 5/4 BBb a couple months ago. It’s a fantastic tuba!

Mark Finley wrote:http://www.mackbrass.com/Mack_-_ZO_F_Tuba.php

The one you posted gave a 404 error. Here's one that works.

Rick "the URL tags eliminate the 'target blank' error, by the way" Denney

bloke wrote:I ~do~ "get" the concept of "museum"...but quite a few of those would actually be seen/appreciated by more people in the hands of (well...) players, yes?

For "really good playing instruments" to not be used/played - and only peered at (from behind a rope-line) just seems - well - odd...and wasteful.

Quite a few of us have driven through that town driven into that little backwater neighborhood of two-lane roads, and found that museum to be closed during the middle of the day.

I've never liked the "museum" idea either.

Of course, I do tend to romanticize those old tubas a bit, and think they play as well as modern stuff. For a while, I was really stubborn about wanting an American rotary CC tuba. Until I finally tracked down some people who owned and played them and realized that really... By modern standards... They stink.

So maybe "museum" is okay. But "collector," as in having a house full of fully functional and very nice tubas, seems pointless to me. You can only use one at a time, and the amount of redundancy must be staggering. Even with the $ to support it, I can imagine that it would get boring over time. Plus, the effect of "you can't take it with you."

A collector is basically a caretaker. You enjoy, study, research various items and appreciate the past....but knowing the items will eventually be donated or sold to either a museum or the next generation of caretakers....

bisontuba wrote:A collector is basically a caretaker. You enjoy, study, research various items and appreciate the past....but knowing the items will eventually be donated or sold to either a museum or the next generation of caretakers....

Or to the landfill.

There are very few tubas that are curatorially interesting. Certainly anything from before about 1870, by which time modern forms had largely been established (except for the Sousaphone, of course). I would be interested from a purely historical perspective in the first American-style oversized C tuba, because I've entertained several theories over the years as to how the modern front-action Yorkophone came to be. Instruments owned and used by famous historical figures (famous only to tuba players, we must recognize) are interesting. But in all of these cases, being able to play the instrument, just to see what our forbears had to put up with (or what we have to put up with) would be perhaps the most important historical learning outcome. That means that a museum isn't just a display of old and interesting stuff behind glass, or just about preservation. The real purpose is research. As a research facility, museums have to be open to researchers, who will then deliver the product of their research to following generations in ways that are not locked away--demonstration recordings, papers, etc. Even museums filled with visual arts, which are indeed intended by their creators simply to be viewed, are all about research.

And this is the problem with private museums, as opposed to private collections. A collection is something assembled for the interest of the collector. But a good collector will still use the collection as the basis for research, which is then published in various ways to allow others to benefit from the collection. That's the difference between collecting and merely accumulating. Most collectors do a bit of both (I know I do). So, the best collectors act like museums, even if the only researcher is the collector, but if the collection is interesting enough also collaborating with other researchers (who may simply be performers interested in these instruments). There are only a few serious tuba collectors, and one can see the differences between them in that dimension.

Jack Tilbury played in a brass quintet a few years ago that used antique instruments--I don't recall how antique because I unfortunately missed all the performances. They performed on quintet night at an Army workshop perhaps a dozen years ago. He included a brief presentation, as I understand it, with the performance. Dave Bragunier performed a Strauss horn concerto at an Army workshop on a turn-of-the-last-century Eb Kruspe tuba. That was a perfect combination of musical performance and historical interest, demonstrating how timbres have changed (or not) and what the player has to do to play in tune. Had he performed it on a modern F tuba, it would still have been musically superb, but without that second level of interest. Those are just two examples of collectible tubas being put to interesting use, even if they are not up to modern standards of playability.

Needless to say, the collections that become well-known because of the research that they engender are less likely to end up in the landfill.

This brings up another point: A lot of collectors are old guys who have the means to pursue their interest. If the collection really is interesting, then I think it's wise to name a qualified collection executor in their will, if they don't set up something more elaborate. That will also help keep important stuff out of the landfill, and place it where it can still feed research.

Rick "who has several collections of various kinds of things, some more interesting than others" Denney

Mark Finley wrote:Rick, did you see the photos I published? There were certainly some very interesting/unique tubas in the collection

[...reviewing thread...]

Rick "What photos?" Denney

The only thing collections are good for is collecting dust. That and the vanity of the person who collects them. Vanity isn't always a bad thing, we all need something for ourselves... but private collections of things are typically unexciting to most other people. Not sure if that's the cause or effect of the private-ness.

I've tried to collect things at various times in my life. It can be fun, and you can learn a lot while doing it. But often times, I end up learning just as much by reading about it as I do actually collecting them. When I was a kid, it was collecting coins. It was fun, and really neat to go to coin shows, check your change for interesting old things, and see what your grandfather wanted to show you from when he was a kid. But over time, it just lost it's luster (pun intended).

And for tubas... I've been blessed to have owned 12+ tubas so far, all excellent instruments in different ways, and rarely more than one at a time. And even though I look back at them all fondly for different reasons, no, I don't wish that I was able to keep all of them. I don't want a room full of tubas, actually. Maybe an F tuba when I can afford it or try to justify it, but that's about it.

Even with mouthpieces, I start to feel ridiculous when I have more than a few sitting around here. I'd love to own a bunch and hold onto them, I do think there's a lot of cool and interesting tuba mouthpieces and designs out there... but to hang onto 5, 10, 20+ "things" that have no purpose (and that do have monetary value), there's just no point in that to me.

The only time I've ever really wanted to collect mouthpieces was for -- as Rick has explained thoroughly -- research purposes. I may still try to do that project sometime, but for now, I've put it on hold indefinitely. In part, because, well, I don't want to buy 40 different mouthpieces. It's a lot of money, and a lot of "stuff."

Last thought -- I've lived in very small houses and apartments nearly all of my life. My downtown condo is like 1,300 sq ft, and it feels like an absolute castle. When we lived in NYC, I think our studio apartment was about 300 or 350 sq ft. We lived there for 8 years. I guess I'm just used to small spaces and the lack of room to accumulate "stuff."

bloke wrote:[not Mark's photos but...] At least - in the past - there were photos of most all of the instruments on a TE website link.

yeah...I'm changing the subject away from the answer to the question...so...' sorry to obfuscate, just a bit...

https://simonettitubacollection.com/

They call it "collection" as well...

bloke wrote: Quite a few of us have driven through that town driven into that little backwater neighborhood of two-lane roads, and found that museum to be closed during the middle of the day.

Not really a 'backwater' neighborhood, but more of a somewhat 'ghettoish' neighborhood in a more rough-and-tumble part of Durham. I think that's why Vince has all those locks on that front door
I don't blame him for having limited hours to see the tuba collection/museum.

It's been over 10 years since I've been to the Tuba Exchange or the collection. I live less than 2 hours west of there off the I-40 corridor; I need to make the trek back one of these days

Mark Finley wrote:So my wife and I are taking a little road trip, and today we made two tuba stops. (my wife is a Saint)

First stop was at Mack brass. I played 4 different Zo tubas, the Bb, the 6/4 CC, the 4/4 CC, and the 6 valve F tuba. I found them all to have exceptionally good intonation, and a very responsive feel. If I had to list a negative, I would say the springs were a little heavy, but that can be tweaked by the user. These Zo tubas are the real thing, competing with the best instruments out there. I think my favorite was the 4/4 CC, because it felt like a horn I would proudly own, or recommend to a friend or student.

Now... This is what we need. A shootout between the Eastman CC and the Zo thunderbird CC. Not the 6/4 York tubas, the 4/4. Who can make that happen?

A couple hours later I was at the tuba museum in Durham. Vince was an amazing host. Donated a tuba for a friend and took a ton of pics. He has an incredible collection. I saw tubas today I didn't know ever existed. Pictures should be on Facebook soon. If you have a chance to visit, please go. It's worth the trip

I definitely want to see a shootout between the Eastman 832 and the Little Thunderbird. What did you think of the Mack Little Thunderbird?

Mark Finley wrote:I really liked it. Intonation seemed very good, tone was great, quality high. I thought the valve springs were a little strong, but that can be adjusted. Right up there with the Eastman as my favorite medium sized CC for less than $7k

I definitely want to see a shootout then. I'll have to compare them myself, and maybe the Wessex one that releases next year or in the near future!