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Do Kaiser Tubas in the key of CC exist? I've only seen them in BBb. A big Kaiser CC seems like something American players would have had made by now.

They are rare.

Most of them stink.

Move on. I've lusted after one of these for a long time. Just ain't gonna happen

bort wrote:They are rare.

Most of them stink.

Move on. I've listed after one of these for a long time. Just ain't gonna happen

Should I just use a smaller than Kaiser German CC and push it? Or just use BBb?

Use a BBb. Bort's advice is right on the mark.

roughrider wrote:Use a BBb. Bort's advice is right on the mark.

Alright sounds fair to me. Even including the German CCs?

Doc wrote:The closest thing to a CC Kaiser is a Meinl Weston Tuono or a VMI Neptune, and those don’t classify as Kaisers. They are big rotary CC tubas. Nothing quite copies a true Kaiser except another Kaiser. And the big, broad BBb tone is part of that, not to mention that certain daisy-cutter quality you can achieve in a big BBb that simply isn’t the same in a CC equivalent.

So a kaiser has to have the depth of the BBb. I get it now. Thank you!

Wasn’t one of the very first Kaiser tuba’s from Cerveny in CC?
If these tubas stunk, how did they end up being the prototype for generations to come?
I don’t mean this in a rhetorical sense.

please look at this advert.

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 86-74-7089" target="_blank

This Alex 164 was made as a CC in 2010 ( I think for Jay B.), but damaged severely at the bell on the way to the US and sent back. A friend of mine got it and had it retroffited to a BB and slightly tilted the trigger block. The fifth valve is a long tone to give a good Es with 4&5. Sounds gorgious and weights only 10 kg (5 valves !). Nothing like the usual 12-13 plus tanks.

could be cut back to its orginal CC

chris

I owned a Holton 6/4 with a Mirafone 190 bell on it. Was an interesting mix of tonal qualities. The horn was in Bb. I had designs to put a 4+1 cluster on it from a VMI 3301. Intonation was good with the 3 valve cluster. My main horn at the time was CC. It was just a set of fingerings and a couple of hours of practice on specific repertoire to get BBb “brain” back into shape to play a concert.

If a horn plays well as-is, don’t cut it. A lot of the BBb Kaiser tubas are pretty killer horns in every aspect. No need to get out a torch and roll the dice. And as testified to here, not even the manufacturers have this settled. Miraphone, a company with a solid reputation for building great tubas, more so rotary contrabasses, still can’t seem to nail down the intonation on the 190CC from most reports. Great sound, lots of adjustments.

The B&S MRP was designed to have the BBb sound, but in a CC package. I wouldn't say it IS a Kaiser, but it's got that kind of spirit to it, and might be about the closest mainstream modern tuba to a Kaiser CC concept.

Chris, that's a beauty! They do exist in small numbers in CC. Tex Cox has one... But even he, a professional tuba player and longtime Alex player, acknowledges that it's not so easy to play.

Other big CC rotary tubas, some of which are far more Kaiser like than others:
Cerveny 601 or 691 -- probably about as close as you'll get? I don't care for them, personally, but that's another post
Alexander 164 -- cut from BBb. The BBb is great, the cut to CC adds issues.
Hirsbrunner 293 -- amazing sound. Baer used one in Milwaukee, but switched to pistons before his rise to fame
Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC -- not a Kaiser, but still very Germanic and huge sound
Miraphone 190 CC -- I've played two, and didn't like them. A Kaiser, and it needs to be played differently than a big 186
Wilson 3050 RZ -- not a Kaiser
MW Tuono -- not a Kaiser... Update of the 2155r?
MW2155r -- not a Kaiser... Intended to be the Alexander sound in a MW tuba? (these tubas had issues...)
B&S Neptune -- same as PT6, but with a Kaiser bell, Kaiser bottom bow, and lots of bling. I wouldn't call it a Kaiser, but the sound is maybe closer than the PT6 is. To me, the Neptune sound, with either leadpipe, is just super big, wide, and sounded more American to me than German? Limited experience, but I did own one for several months...
B&S PT6 - Not a Kaiser, but sort of default large rotary tuba these days. Very nice.
B&S MRP -- designed to be the best of BBb in CC, but not a true Kaiser
Gronitz...? (Maybe would make the big CC w rotary valves... But again, not a Kaiser.

I think there are a few others that I'm forgetting.

bort wrote:Chris, that's a beauty! They do exist in small numbers in CC. Tex Cox has one... But even he, a professional tuba player and longtime Alex player, acknowledges that it's not so easy to play.

Other big CC rotary tubas, some of which are far more Kaiser like than others:
Cerveny 601 or 691 -- probably about as close as you'll get? I don't care for them, personally, but that's another post
Alexander 164 -- cut from BBb. The BBb is great, the cut to CC adds issues.
Hirsbrunner 293 -- amazing sound. Baer used one in Milwaukee, but switched to pistons before his rise to fame
Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC -- not a Kaiser, but still very Germanic and huge sound
Miraphone 190 CC -- I've played two, and didn't like them. A Kaiser, and it needs to be played differently than a big 186
Wilson 3050 RZ -- not a Kaiser
MW Tuono -- not a Kaiser... Update of the 2155r?
MW2155r -- not a Kaiser... Intended to be the Alexander sound in a MW tuba? (these tubas had issues...)
B&S Neptune -- same as PT6, but with a Kaiser bell, Kaiser bottom bow, and lots of bling. I wouldn't call it a Kaiser, but the sound is maybe closer than the PT6 is. To me, the Neptune sound, with either leadpipe, is just super big, wide, and sounded more American to me than German? Limited experience, but I did own one for several months...
B&S PT6 - Not a Kaiser, but sort of default large rotary tuba these days. Very nice.
B&S MRP -- designed to be the best of BBb in CC, but not a true Kaiser
Gronitz...? (Maybe would make the big CC w rotary valves... But again, not a Kaiser.

I think there are a few others that I'm forgetting.

I dont wanna do too much "key-switching" but I suppose it doesn't matter what key it is in if it plays like a dream!

Doc wrote:Thanks, Bort. I neglected to mention the Hirsbrunner HB 6 and the Alex 164 CC because, I suppose, those are incredibly rare and expensive. Probably as “kaiser“ as a CC can be, but BBb Kaisers are in abundance by comparison.

I still wish I could have bought that HB-6 last winter. Oh well, I definitely landed on my feet with my Alex 163. Even the Alex 164, I had about 3 or 4 chances to do one more mouse click and have it on its way to Minnesota. But I could never being myself to buy it.

And tools in a toolbox, great analogy! Rough comparison...I was doing some yardwork last weekend, and needed a hammer to tap in a few things. I didn't have one nearby, but did have a 10 pound sledgehammer nearby. So, I used that instead. It was absolutely the wrong tool, and a pain in the rear. It worked. But smaller tools are appropriate for the right sized jobs. You don't ol' Sledgie very often, unless you have jobs that need ol' Sledgie.

Doc wrote:

bort wrote:

Doc wrote:Thanks, Bort. I neglected to mention the Hirsbrunner HB 6 and the Alex 164 CC because, I suppose, those are incredibly rare and expensive. Probably as “kaiser“ as a CC can be, but BBb Kaisers are in abundance by comparison.

I still wish I could have bought that HB-6 last winter. Oh well, I definitely landed on my feet with my Alex 163. Even the Alex 164, I had about 3 or 4 chances to do one more mouse click and have it on its way to Minnesota. But I could never being myself to buy it.

And tools in a toolbox, great analogy! Rough comparison...I was doing some yardwork last weekend, and needed a hammer to tap in a few things. I didn't have one nearby, but did have a 10 pound sledgehammer nearby. So, I used that instead. It was absolutely the wrong tool, and a pain in the rear. It worked. But smaller tools are appropriate for the right sized jobs. You don't ol' Sledgie very often, unless you have jobs that need ol' Sledgie.

But lots and lots of people seem to want a 6/4 York sledge who aren’t really doing sledge work. But I agree they are fun to swing!

*sings* Got a nine pound hammer...

Yeah, I figured I would never buy a 6/4 tuba until I absolutely was sure that I would use it, because they seem more like specialty horns. I'm gonna settle in the 4/4 range for piston and maybe 4/4 or 5/4 for the rotary tuba. I figured a slightly bigger rotary could make it be slightly less laser-y but I could be wrong.

Right tool for the right job=true. Got enough of them.

There is also something to be said about focusing all your efforts on ONE horn. MAKING that one horn work in every situation and really getting to know that horn.

I believe both to be true and try to balance my playing between 2/3 one tuba and 1/3 other tuba's that are relevant to needs at the time.
More or less. Sometimes I have to tip the scales to one side or another.
There's no right or wrong. In the end, it's how we play that matters.

pjv wrote:Right tool for the right job=true. Got enough of them.

There is also something to be said about focusing all your efforts on ONE horn. MAKING that one horn work in every situation and really getting to know that horn.

I believe both to be true and try to balance my playing between 2/3 one tuba and 1/3 other tuba's that are relevant to needs at the time.
More or less. Sometimes I have to tip the scales to one side or another.
There's no right or wrong. In the end, it's how we play that matters.

I may eventually get into the Frankentuba stuff so I could make a CC tuba that can do everything I need!

My Cerveny ACB 691 is a proper 5/4, .835 bore and 19.7 bell, was advertised as a kaiser by Cerveny.
Some examples have bad intonation. Luckily mine is quite good
You may be hard pressed to find a better deal on a 5/4 rotary CC, these sell for less than $3,000 online

It seems this model was discontinued and essentially replaced by the 601. Those are 10K new

Mcordon1 wrote:My Cerveny ACB 691 is a proper 5/4, .835 bore and 19.7 bell, was advertised as a kaiser by Cerveny.
Some examples have bad intonation. Luckily mine is quite good
You may be hard pressed to find a better deal on a 5/4 rotary CC, these sell for less than $3,000 online

It seems this model was discontinued and essentially replaced by the 601. Those are 10K new

I may end up going BBb when I buy a kaiser eventually. I do want the broadness and foundation of sound that BBb brings, and I'd use it as my band tuba. I'd use it for other stuff, but it would depend on what is being played.

bloke wrote:I have a remarkable original condition miraphone 90B (45+ inches tall... bell diameter is about 17-3/8 inches, bore is .835”) with a really well-made form fitting slimline hard case. I’ve made it known that I would sell it, and I will sell it for less then I would sell it for later, because I plan to do some things to it to enhance it, otherwise. That having been said, if I really really like it - after I do those things to it - it may no longer be for sale.
From roughly five feet away, it looks new.

Hey Joe, just out of curiosity, what's the vintage on your 190CC?

poomshanka wrote:

bloke wrote:I have a remarkable original condition miraphone 90B (45+ inches tall... bell diameter is about 17-3/8 inches, bore is .835”) with a really well-made form fitting slimline hard case. I’ve made it known that I would sell it, and I will sell it for less then I would sell it for later, because I plan to do some things to it to enhance it, otherwise. That having been said, if I really really like it - after I do those things to it - it may no longer be for sale.
From roughly five feet away, it looks new.

Hey Joe, just out of curiosity, what's the vintage on your 190CC?

It's a BBb