Mouthpiece for French Tuba?

[TubaSailor]

I've recently acquired (impulsively) a French Tuba in C, and I'm looking for advice on the correct mouthpiece to facilitate the low register. My first thought is a large to very large (Schilke 60?) bowl with a large bore. Any advice is appreciated, especially from experienced French Tuba players or mouthpiece design experts. It's a euro shank receiver, which may be limiting, but I can cut down a bass trombone shank if necessary.

[iiipopes]

Here's what Wessex says about the mouthpiece supplied with their French C tuba: "Supplied with tuba sized mouthpiece (receiver euphonium size)."

[tbonesullivan]

Here's what Wessex says about the mouthpiece supplied with their French C tuba: "Supplied with tuba sized mouthpiece (receiver euphonium size)."

Yeah, that's not entirely clear. Euphoniums these days usually come with a large shank trombone sized receiver, so it's not clear if it is going to come with that, or come with a medium/European shank receiver. The "Dolce" has a large shank receiver.

[TubaSailor]

Thanks - I'd checked the Wessex site, and was hoping to get a tip from someone who's actually played one - Does it work with a 27mm rim/cup like a Wick SM2M or should I look for something bigger? I can get bass bone cups up to about 29-30mm, but I'm not sure it wouldn't make the intonation squirrely with an inappropriate cup size. Any advise? I'd rather not go the trail and error method with the euro shank pieces costing what they do. Or if I have to do that, I'd like to have some better starting point than a WAG..

[tbonesullivan]

I would contact Wessex first for the mouthpiece receiver size clarification. If it's just a standard large shank, you should be good. Given the range of the instrument, I would think usually a more "bass trombone" size mouthpiece would be preferable. It's pitched a whole step up from Euphonium.

[cjk]

UncleBeer is a professional who owns and plays one. I'd suggest you try asking him.

[Snake Charmer]

From which maker and year is yours?
On my 1940 Courtois I started with a DW SM3M Ultra, with the very limited choice of mouthpieces with medium shank (euro shank) it was the first I could get my hands on. It is now easier with the Wessex, which is equipped with a Euph-sized receiver. After some testing my favourite mouthpiece is now the Kelly stainless steel Bass Bone. It offers enough punch in the low register without affecting the high notes. The Kelly Beast has a too big cup, the upper octave gets very flat.
You can get the big cups with the euro shank from Kelly when ordering the two-piece model. I bought mine with all three shanks and now I use the Bass Bone cup with both French Cs, the 5 valve Bb Saxhorn, the ophicleide and sometimes even on a small-shank trombone.

[TubaSailor]

Thanks for all the info - I don't know the maker - the engraving on the bell seems to be: "OUVRIERS REUNIS" "ASSOCIATION" "GENERALE", each on different lines, and then "Feurs de l'armee", PARIS. "Ruestmaur 81" Any information would be appreciated. It's in great shape, with minimal valve wear, and only the usual minor dings on the bottom bow. It does have the long (2-whole step) third valve. Would it be detrimental to it's value to cut that to a 3-half-step valve like the Wessex? I'd rather not mess with it until I know a lot more about it. It is definitely the Euro shank receiver. I'll look into the Kelly's - thanks for that tip, I didn't know they had a euro shank available.

TS

[Snake Charmer]

Ouvriers Reunis ("re-united works") is the name of the company, "Feurs" is short for "Fournisseurs" which means "supplier" (for the army), the address is Paris, Rue St. Maur 81. I have no information how long they exactly made instruments, but at least between ca 1900 and 1950s. With an eye on quality OR was a maker of upper middle-class horns, so having one without too much wear is a rare find. Congratulations and welcome to the club!
Personally I would not cut the third valve, it will not only lower the value of the instrument (but these rare beasts are not so expensive...) but you will also lose one of the advantages of the bit different fingering. With the two tone third valve and the perfect fifth on valve six you can play the whole octave down using only one or two valves at a time, only Eb under the staff needs three (1-2-6). And it is not hard to get used to the long third valve.
On my Wessex I pulled the third valve slide out for the two-tone step after Jonathan refused to offer the original Couesnon solution: they made for some time an insert for having both options.

[Doug Elliott]

I have considerable experience making mouthpieces for odd size instruments, and the shank size is no problem at all for me.

My general attitude is to use a rim size that works for the player, and a cup and backbore that works for the instrument.

[windshieldbug]

My general attitude is to use a rim size that works for the player, and a cup and backbore that works for the instrument.

[TubaSailor]

Thank you all - I now know much more about the horn, and have a little better idea of where I'm going with the mouthpiece question. I'm not going to alter the instrument at all, I just don't know enough about it to take that risk. This will be a challenge to adapt my mind-set to the new fingerings. (Something to occupy all the extra free time I have without gigs ) I'll be contacting Mr. Elliot off-line. Thanks again for the info.

[tbonesullivan]

Thank you all - I now know much more about the horn, and have a little better idea of where I'm going with the mouthpiece question. I'm not going to alter the instrument at all, I just don't know enough about it to take that risk. This will be a challenge to adapt my mind-set to the new fingerings. (Something to occupy all the extra free time I have without gigs ) I'll be contacting Mr. Elliot off-line. Thanks again for the info.

You could always look for an F tuba set up for the 3+3 Vienna fingerings...

[TubaSailor]

I need a bit of a challenge - not an impossible mission - I still need to be able to play the instruments I have, and if I tried Vienna fingerings I'd probably become hopelessly lost on my regular horns! Still need to sit down and figure-out the fingerings for this one. All fun...

[Snake Charmer]

You could always look for an F tuba set up for the 3+3 Vienna fingerings...

...not that would be of any help. Vienna fingering is totally different. And even there are two slightly different versions available...

[tbonesullivan]

...not that would be of any help. Vienna fingering is totally different. And even there are two slightly different versions available...

Oh, I didn't mean it that way. They were looking for ways to pass the time with the lack of gigs, and that would be another way.

[Snake Charmer]

I had posted this fingering chart in some earlier thread, but I do not know if it is still available.
Here is my personal fingering for the French C, with two-tone third valve and the fifth valve slide pulled a bit out for giving a half note in combination with 4 or 6:
c (in the staff) - 0
B - 2
Bb - 1
A - 12
Ab - 3
G - 4
Gb - 45
F - 6
E - 56 or 34
Eb - 126
D - 36
Db - 46
The C (under the staff) can of course be played open, but you can finger further down:
C - 146
B, - 346
Bb, - 1346
A, - 123456
In most fingering charts you can see a lot of possibilities for different valve combinations, but the original philosophy of the instrument is to use as less valves as possible. So you avoid the stuffiness of a standard instrument in the lower octave. Best example is Chuck Daellenbach in the Canadian Brass recording of the Tuba Tiger Rag (standard 5 valve C): at the end he goes down with a good F, a not so good Eb, a very stuffy D, a very open pedal C and Bb. On compensated Euphs it is even worse...

[TubaSailor]

Thanks - this will be a big help -

[Bbfoghorn]

I would think that if it's really simply a whole step up from Euphonium, hence a Euphonium in C, then "Tuba" would sort of be a misnomer. Euro shank would seem to be just fine for that, or a 1 1/4G bass trombone MP/ small Eb tuba Mp.

[TubaSailor]

It's a bit different, if only because of the expected range - Euphonium parts will not usually go as low as the French Tuba parts, and as far as I've been able to determine, there's a slightly different "color", timbre, tonality, expectation. The receiver is a Euphonium Euro size - Tuba or Bass Bone mouthpieces will not fit. I'm still learning about the horn myself. Thanks for the information.