TubeNet

Hi,

I think of buying a Eb tuba. I play both Brass Band and Concert Band.
I looking on:
1: Besson Sovereign 981
2: Miraphone 283 Norwegian Star

Any one got experience of both?
Any one done a side by side test of those?

Any other comment?

/Erik

Learned to play on a 981. Played two of them for more than 20 years, in brassband.
Great brassband-style instrument.
Versatile, great sound.

However, if you are looking for more “bite” and “presence” it is very hard work to get heard on your own on a 981. The sound is tuned for blending, not for sticking out.

So I looked for something else.
Tried both Miraphone Norwegian star and Rudolf Meinl E-flat.
They are very close. Both have a bit of German f tube gene in them making them sounding more “present” at the cost of blending less.
I settled on the Rudolf Meinl, but they are very close.

Also what I liked but others may dislike: Norwegian star (and Rudolf Meinl) are more flexible, both in tuning and in sound you can create (dark, bright, really sharp, etc.) Wide slots allowing for more control.
981 is more “point-and-shoot”: very well tuned slots at the cost of well, being less “flexible”.
The downside of allowing more control/wide slots: you need to rely on your ears to make it work.

Hope this gives you some idea.

Gerben

Thanks for a good answer Gerben

While i have no experience with the miraphone e flat,i have owned and played the 981 for the last 30 years.I have used it for everything from solo work to large wind band and symphony orchestra rep.It has never once let me down.I was told many times that if you are going to own one tuba own a large compensating ee flat tuba.It can easily cover any rep you encounter.

Tubenet always has the answers. See viewtopic.php?t=47465" target="_blank.

SOVEREIGNS
I was also brought up on Sovereigns. Then I bought a righthand drive comp Besson 983. This still has the 'too' mellow saxhorn British sound. I had a narrow mouthpipe made to give it more presence. Now of course they have made the narrower bell 984. Try one. If you do choose a British design compensator add as much as possible to the third valve compensating slide. I made myself a couple of extensions adding about 8 inches - but there is the old trick of using the equivalent slide from a BBb bass, or sometimes a BBb bass second valve slide. This means that the low GGb is played 3+4, so GG must always be 1,2+4. But low FF (1,3 +4) and EEE are now pretty well in tune. [The comp system works properly only for each valve alone with the fourth valve]. Also perhaps use a shallower mouthpiece to concentrate the sound.


NEW STYLE GERMAN 'NORWEGIAN'/B&S SYMPHONIE CLONES
The Norwegian Star etc models have compromised or perhaps rather changed the old Czech/German sound. They have kept the long mouthpipe but I think the bore after the valves expands more rapidly.

I suspect they were influenced by the range of instruments (1960s - 1980s) that has ended up with the B&S Symphonie style 5 or 6 valve F. The originals of these were handcrafted German new style instruments now widely copied and used by many soloists. BUT the price is unattainable. I recently tried a genuine B&S six valve which, yes, blew well but no better than my Eb and F Cervenys, EEb Besson, old Miraphone 183 or indeed my Jinbao 6 valve F 9 (stamped Schiller, Frankfurt, Germany!!!!!). It would have cost 8 times the amount.

[Incidently I really believe the Chinese who claim the Schiller to be genuine German, Frankfort hand-crafted hand-made parts from copper mined in Germany and smelted by men wearing lederhosen and lovingly created by German technicians all over 80 years old etc etc. I found some sauerkraut in the sixth valve]. To be fair this 'cheap copy' actually plays excellently - even with a Eb crook. I put in a cynlindrical Eb crook immediately after the valves and before that hugely expanding general tuning slide. It makes the sound more focussed.

CZECH/GERMAN OLD STYLE
The old German sound is far more focussed, penetrative and darker unless you work hard at being very warm, velvety and encompassing. British EEbs hoot at ffff, Germans roar.

I would go for a five valve old fashioned Czech/German style and use a huge mouthpiece where necessary. The best is the loved and lamented 183 with a fifth valve. https://reverb.com/item/32825215-used-m ... ba-sn-1669" target="_blank. This will give you a distinctive, dark chocolate sound when you want. BUT always check the instrument has an easy fourth valve register - some are reluctant to speak freely. I find the new style German blend neither fish nor fowl. But taste is everything.

If you are going to play in a really serious top level Brass Band Where everyone is playing on British Brass band style instruments then choose the sovereign. Personally I have played both, and like the Norwegian Star better, but you could also try the Meinl Weston Eb, it has tapers that look like the Sovereign, so would blend well a Brass band but be more free blowing than the sovereign in the low register.

Willson also makes a 3400 in both 5 valve and 3+1. I have played both and are excellent horns.

Oversimplifying it a bit, I´d characterize Eb tubas as follows:
British compensated EEb: BBb Tuba, but in Eb.
Rotary Eb with 5 to 6 valves: F Tuba, but in Eb.
Melton´s 2040/5 I would locate somewhere in between, but Norwegian Star definitely leaning towards the latter.

In both Brass Band and Concert Band i´d choose the British style sound concept, for the following reasons:
- more convincing (that is: more BBb-like) large and contra octaves come in handy on Doomsday passages
- Formation of a "Tuba section" with a distinct Sound Quality apart from other low brass.

In Polka band I´d go for rotary anytime, because here the Job of "high Tuba part" is different.
Here, the brighter, more singing sound quality of a typical rotary F or Eb establishes a link between oval tenors / baritones and "real" (BBb)-tuba operating 1 1/2 to 2 octaves below.

tubeast wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:32 am Oversimplifying it a bit, I´d characterize Eb tubas as follows:
British compensated EEb: BBb Tuba, but in Eb.
Rotary Eb with 5 to 6 valves: F Tuba, but in Eb.
Melton´s 2040/5 I would locate somewhere in between, but Norwegian Star definitely leaning towards the latter.

Agree on above oversimplification, if you mean 19 inch bell compensators. except that I prefer the MW 2141 FA or the Sovereign 17 inch 980 or 983 also in brass band, especially at the upper split part. It makes a nice connection from tuba group to euph and works really nice together with bass bone. Have used the MW on the lower split part too, it adds a bit of clarity and attack to the Bb bass sound, but here a 19 inch compensator works really fine too.

the Eastman 853 offers a different voice: American CC, but in Eb. Think of small-block V8 in a compact body.

I play a Willson 3400 and it works in pretty much any ensemble. I’ve used it in brass bands, brass ensembles (large and small), quartets, concert bands, solo work, jazz groups, etc. Intonation and response are great. Comfortable to hold. Solid horn.

Michael Grant wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:06 am I play a Willson 3400 and it works in pretty much any ensemble. I’ve used it in brass bands, brass ensembles (large and small), quartets, concert bands, solo work, jazz groups, etc. Intonation and response are great. Comfortable to hold. Solid horn.

I see there are 4 versions of the 3400 at their site. Wich version do you have?

I have played a Sovereign Eb for over 40 years. It works well in any ensemble. The intonation is excellent and the sound has lots of core and projection. The York Eb is also very good. You won't go wrong with either.

Before you buy anything, you should check out the Wessex. They are making really good tubas at an affordable price.

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:17 am the Eastman 853 offers a different voice: American CC, but in Eb. Think of small-block V8 in a compact body.

Shelby Cobra? Where does the Wessex Gangney and Calvery fit into all of this?

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:17 am the Eastman 853 offers a different voice: American CC, but in Eb. Think of small-block V8 in a compact body.

Shelby Cobra? Where does the Wessex Gangney and Cavalry fit into all of this?

Shelby Cobra? Where does the Wessex Gangney and Cavalry fit into all of this?

I didn't play those two yet so I can only guess.
My thaught for the Eastman was a Ford Mustang. With automatic, the Gnagey may fit the same category, but with with manual gearbox (no compensation). The Cavalry seems to be (like the Besson 983) a british style tuba in disguise (left hand drive!)

Morning all,
I have spent the last few months looking at Eb tubas and have purchased two in that time.
The Eb is probably the most popular tuba in the UK. Used in brass bands, wind bands, and symphony orchestras.
I considered the following (in no particular order) as brand new &/or in used condition: Miraphone, Cerveny, Melton, Besson, Yamaha, Hirsbrunner, St. Petersburg, Willson, Eastman, Kanstul, Gronitz, and the list goes on.
Let’s say my head was spinning with the array on offer.
So, I broke it down into the following criteria:
(a) Manufacturer’s reputation.
(b) Price and value for money.
(c) Compensating or non-compensating.
(d) Rotary or piston valves (or both).
(e) Ergonomics.
(f) Maintenance & care.
(g) Re-sale value and likely ease of that sale.
Not listed is “how it blows” because I took this as read when a player buys a new tuba.

What did I do?

First Tuba Eb
I have played Besson (nay Boosey & Hawkes) British-built tubas for many, many years.
The British factory closed circa 2000, I believe, and manufacture moved to continental Europe.
My understanding is that Besson no-longer make tubas and contract their models to B&S in Germany to make on their behalf.
Having spoken to a number of well-informed people, they recommended going for a pre-1990 Besson Sovereign or Imperial as they thought this was this manufacturer’s Golden Years.
I was delighted to discover that there is quite a buoyant market for used Bessons' of this era.
Example of: https://www.duchybrass.co.uk/shop/instr ... ***-tubas/
Many have been fully refurbished and fall within the 2,500 GBP to 4,500 GBP (2020EC) price range.
[ I guess shipping UK to Sweden of a tuba may be around 600 GBP ?? ]
I picked out a used and un-refurbished Besson 782, which is an Imperial by any other name.
Three piston values up top and one on side.
For a 1982 ‘ish built tuba it has aged well and blows extremely well, especially in the low register.
I have arranged for some customisation work to be done that includes fitting a new leadpipe and receiver.
Not that expensive to do, but I am not re-plating.
Lots of playing years left in this tuba, for sure. Good buy.

Second Eb tuba
I test blew Miraphone, Meinl-Weston, and St. Pete.
After a great deal of thought afterwards, I decided to look at a cavalry-style tuba with pistons.
I wanted something that was very different to my 782, but not too different.
Having miraculously found for sale a brand new (old-new stock) HBS-488 Hirsbrunner, I was very happy indeed.
Hirsbrunner have not manufactured tubas for many years and Adams had bought all their tooling.
Adams do not intend to manufacture an Eb tuba in the near future I was informed.
The deal fell through for the Hirsbrunner. So sad.
Next, I looked at Willson.
Probably because this tuba was available in stock, without having to wait 6 months whilst your order was being manufactured.
We also had the unknown impact of Brexit, which was looming at the end of 2020.
I purchased a 3400-FA5S, which I have just received.
This has 4 pistons in-front and a thumb trigger for a 5th valve. Non-compensating.
Very responsive and a tight sound in all registers.
Marvellous build quality on first inspection.
But not cheap ending up costing me with a hard case around 10,500 GBP (2020EC).
Only time will tell whether this has been a good buy.
But first impressions are good.

Coda
New Miraphone + case > 11,000 GBP (2020EC)
New Besson 981 + case = 8,000 GBP
Need to check delivery lead-times, too, as they may not be in stock.
My advice is to consider a refurbished Sovereign (or Imperial) ideally pre-1990, and not just look at new buys.
[ Although the earlier models are very heavy, so if for kids use then I would look at a later model in the 1990's ?? ]
You can buy at least two of these for the price of a new Miraphone! - although the Miraphone is a great tuba in its own right.
The 981 is a very good tuba much loved in the UK and a used one should provide decades of service if well looked after.

You can’t go wrong with the Willson or Miraphone comes down to pistons or rotors. But don’t discount the Besson 983/984 if you like front action. If I were buying today it would be the Besson 984 or Willson 3400 compact. But the smaller horns fits my needs more. Since you play in larger groups the full size 3400 or 983 would be great.

JJ

I played a Boosey & Hawkes Imperial for more than 30 years. For most of that time it was my only horn. I played it in brass quintet, pops orchestra, concert band, and brass band. My Imperial originally had the smaller leadpipe/receiver (similar to the 982), which I eventually swapped out for a 981 leadpipe/receiver.
My Imperial also had the larger, 19" bell, not the smaller 15" bell. This horn has a very broad, enveloping tone. I have been playing the top Eb tuba part in a brass band and just felt that I wanted a horn with a more focused tone. I also had recently purchased a Mirafone 187 BBb tuba, so I felt that I would like to get an Eb tuba with a contrasting tone. I eventually purchased a Miraphone Norwegian Star. This horn has a much more focused tone, like a scalpel vs. a butter knife. Also the low register is much more open and responsive than on the compensating horn. I am still struggling however with the different fingerings for the low register. I also like the NS in brass quintet. The intonation of the Miraphone is not as consistent as the B&H however. There are more notes that require attention to play in tune.

While I love the NS, I am keeping my eyes out for a B&H or Besson with the 15" bell. I think the more focused tone of the smaller bell and the better intonation might just be the right combination for me. (Anyone out there in Tubenetland have one sitting in your closet collecting dust?)

So basically it comes down to what you are looking for in your horn. What kind of playing will you be doing mostly?

Good luck in your quest and enjoy the journey!!!!

ken k