Eastman tuba build quality

[bcollins]

All those who have eastmans, or who have repaired them, what is the build quality? Are they Chinese made? I have repaired Chinese made tubas, and have owned a Jinbao CC myself. The build quality was low. Heck, even the name brand companies who have outsourced to China have issues with poor quality now. The CC I owned sounded like a Miraphone, and had better intonation top to bottom, but the build quality was low. It had thin metal, thin silver playing that came off like crazy, poor fitting rotors and linkages that were loud and clacky, not to mention a couple of parts broke within the first couple of years. My friend’s Wessex Bb tuba had the same issues. The Chinese tubas and euphoniums I have worked on all had the same issues. They play great but aren’t built to last. Now back to Eastman. If you have had an Eastman for a year or more, how is it holding up? What is the backstory for Eastman? Do you guys think Eastman in the coming years is going to become a top brand and raise the prices to match? Thanks for the feedback.

[Renodoc]

I have a friend who is a high end woodwind repairman and he speaks pretty highly of their woodwinds. I've been wondering the same thing about build quality. I know there are some incredible tuba players who are sponsored by them and that was sort of my question about musician sponsorship that I posted a week or so ago. Are these elite tuba players playing the same Eastman tubas that we get our hands on.

[Dan Schultz]

Eastman tubas are of Asian origin. I've seen both good and not-so-good ones. The good thing is they at least have a parts program in place. Most of the out-of-the-box problems I've seen are due to improper cleaning from the factory and those problems tend to eventually fade away once the horn has been cleaned a couple of times and the pistons wear a bit.

Personally.... I'd rather own a good used European tuba than a new Eastman.

[Snake Charmer]

Due to shoulder problems I had to replace my beloved Besson 981. After some time of testing around I ended with the Eastman 853 (front-action Eb compensated). Overall build quality seems not too bad, soldering and laquer look good, valves are working fine. Not so nice: the two bottom tuning slides (main and 4th valve) are very well aligned, so the tend to wander while playing. I use a stickier grease for them and watch the mts very closely, so it works. But this did not happen with the Besson... And I had to shorten the 3rd valve slide, it was too long (but not long enough to pull it for two whole-steps).
And, after one year of playing, the first valve tended to stuck so I flushed the horn with hot water. I don't know what they had put into at the factory, but it washed out an amount of slush I never found before in my Besson (even after ten years playing) or in any obscure vintage horn. And I found a pinhole in the connection bow between 3rd and 4th valve! Having only two days before a gig I just glued on a tiny brass patch and now I know why I had to use much more air in the low register than with the Besson...

[Ltrain]

If you look at my posting history, you’ll see I’ve left a lot of glowing remarks about my history with Eastman. I’ve owned my 853 Eb for a year and a half now. Before that, I owned an Eastman 632 CC. But between Eastmans, I tried owning a certain popular Jin Bao brand’s 5/4 BBb. Needless to say, that experience was a disaster. Not only did the horn ship with misaligned valve ports (talking soldering, not felts!), the detailing was also a major downgrade (poorly threaded valve caps, leaky main tuning slide water key, and much more).

I was so happy to go back to Eastman. The experience reminded me of when I got my first new Miraphone in college. My 853 is overdue for a cleaning and alignment, but still plays like a dream.

Just a few things to clarify Snake Charmer’s experience: The long 3rd tuning slide on the first generation of 853s is a known issue and the expense of my modification was covered by the dealer. If you paid out of pocket, you should reach out to Eastman.

I had the same issue with a wandering MTS, but this is a feature, not a bug. I’ve had several professionals look into this, and the issue is the result of perfectly aligned slides, a rare thing on a Chinese horn. The solution is exactly what you did: use a thick grease or lanolin. My slide has stayed put since I did just that.

If you bought your horn new, Eastman’s warranty should also cover the pinhole. Nonetheless, Besson’s aren’t perfect either. I’ve seen many postings about thin metal at vulnerable points, inconsistent intonation and response issues, etc. at less than 1/2 the price of a Besson, it sounds like you made a good choice. DM me and I can put you in touch with some folks that use this horn and are close with the Eastman folks.

[Snake Charmer]

Maybe it sounded different, but I love to play the Eastman 853! At least since I made a left hand lever for the 4th valve, after 26 years of 3+x valves I am not able (or willing) to switch to four-in-line.
The shortening of the 3rd valve slide I did myself, and for the pinhole it would have been a guarantee issue, but the dealer is two hours away, my repair guy one hour. And on the valve block I do not dare to use a torch... Now there is no hole and I am happy!
The slipping out MTS I had also on my Nirschl CC years ago (long sold!), at this horn was much more expensive!

[JPLynd]

I've owned an Eastman 852 and an 836 (admittedly, both relatively briefly, but thats due to my own craziness, not flaws with the horns). I thought both horns felt very well made. I've also played multiple 836s - very consistent horn. Similar intonation tendencies, perfectly aligned slides, even and consistent tone across all registers. Don't let the fact that they're not European scare you off... Horns coming out of Asia have made leaps and bounds in the past decade.

[euphomate]

Over the years I have had the wandering slide issue on a variety of euphoniums and tubas, including Besson, Yamaha and Asian stencils. I had a second valve slide on a Besson Sovereign euphonium blast out from the horn in the middle of a solo once. "UltraPure Heavy" slide grease solved the problem.

[Antontuba]

I also use Hetman Ultra Heavy slide grease on my sliding out at the wrong time slides (981). Problem solved.

[Chris Olka]

As one of their “Professional” players since 2017, all of the Eastman Tubas I’ve purchased (yes purchased) have been free from defects and held up to daily heavy use. Each of those tubas was picked from a large batch of horns in California, or from a smaller batch from local dealer. The construction and playing characteristics have been EXTREMELY consistent and high quality. Every single one of these horns was headed out to a “regular” end consumer and not cherry picked for me. In a few instances, the horn I picked...nobody else liked! I guess that’s a testament to my individual playing preferences...

Regardless, the overall quality of these tubas has been on par with all of the High-end manufacturers, and better than most in my experience. I have seen a very few that I thought should go back to the factory for adjustment. The few times this has happened, I’ve let Eastman know and they’ve contacted the dealer and swapped them out. I think that they really want to protect their reputation that’s been building lately. I can’t say that I’ve heard of other “Big Name” companies be so willing to do this.

I hope this helps, and that you all take this with a grain of salt, so to speak. I am after all, a “Promoter” of their tuba line.
Best,

[Renodoc]

Thanks for that insight! I was kind of thinking with tubas and their manufacturing process, it would be hard to do anything too crazy for the instruments for the pros!

[2ba4t]

Snake Charmer - I would be so grateful if you could post a photo of the method you used to operate the fourth valve with a lever. Also any description or diagrams would be wonderful. I also was brought up on 3 + 1 and find 4 in a row pistons a challenge. Many thanks. My email is bass2ba4t@gmail.com, Thanks

[2ba4t]

Chris Olka

I don't take anything you say with a pinch of salt. I sense that there is a prejudice which creates a negative approach to Chinese made instruments. Thus we hear of their defects rather than those of the so-called European and US horns. In addition, I understand that nearly all parts are made in China for most non-Chinese makers - who perhaps today are really 'assemblers' rather than makers. Obviously assembly is of central importance but with the correct rigour in supervision and checking (a la Wessex) Chinese-assembled horns, are proportionally just as good or bad as the non-Chinese. Yes, they are not built to last 150 years.

I write this after researching and obtaining the Jinbao "Schiller" 'Frankfort - Germany' (ye, sure) 6 valve F tuba. It had a terrible reputation - but I did an ex. for one 6 months ago and it really plays well. It is just a stencil of someone's Weltklang/B&S 'Symphonie' design - modernised German F. This tragically has replaced the wondrous old high bell, rich and distinct style. Even Miraphone have given in to fashion. The sound is a sort of compromise of USA/German & English. The mouthpipe is short and the bore expands enormously - English saxhorn style -after the valves. If you add straight tubing after the valves (eg convert to Eb or CC - discussed elsewhere) you get a more interesting, French horn type sound.

So the Jinbao for a fraction of the price seems sensible.

[Wayne Rice]

I'll be brief. I've owned an Eastman 632 CC for around three years. It is the best horn I've ever played and I've owned at least 15 different horns, all German or American. The build quality is excellent and the slide alignment can cause issues because it is too perfect; you may need heavy grease on the tuning slide. I'm not crazy about how the rotor (5th valve) has the opening to the rotor in the back of the horm because it makes it difficult to oil. Eastman changed that feature on the 832, which uses a different valve set. Other than that tiny gripe, I love that tuba.

For me, what makes it extra special is that it was picked from about 12 horns at Milano Music by Chuck Kerrigan and Sam Pilafian. Is it perfect? No. Do I sound better on it than any other tuba I've ever owned? Definitely.

[groth]

I sense that there is a prejudice which creates a negative approach to Chinese made instruments

You sense wrong. Some people don't want to deal with Far East horns because of their previous reputation and prefer U.S. or German made horns.

[Renodoc]

I sense that there is a prejudice which creates a negative approach to Chinese made instruments

You sense wrong. Some people don't want to deal with Far East horns because of their previous reputation and prefer U.S. or German made horns.

My worry with instruments made in China is really the working conditions and about the people actually making the instruments. If I buy a horn made in the US or Europe, I can be pretty reassured that the workers are making a decent wage and being treated well and the money I'm spending on the instrument is going to support them. It's something that I've been worried about for a while but after watching "American Factory" on Netflix, it really brought it home. I know some of the companies have some attractive looking videos, but it's something I think about quite a bit.

[PChadbourne]

The Eastman tubas are built great! I personally have one and it is one of the best Eb tubas I have ever played. Not to mention with also being one of the head managers at S. E. Shires, overseeing our own assembly and Finishing departments I have also been to the factories in China. All of the men and women that work at these factories are hands down some of the top in the field! I am very proud to say I work for Eastman and Shires and I HIGHLY recommend them!

Maybe I'm biased but anyway here are my $.02(also not paid to post this!)

[Ltrain]

Hot take:

New Eastman > any new US made horn from the present day options

[GeoffC_UK]

Morning all,

I have been a tuba player for a few decades.

But my day job is as an engineer working in industries where quality is king.
In particular, I am a manufacturing guy with a few specialisms in tow.

I started my apprenticeship in engineering back in 1979 with a company that supplied linishing and polishing machines (& consumables) for brass instrument manufacture.
So, at that time, I got a really close look at how brass instruments were made in volume.

Over the years, I have studied and learnt, but remain fascinated by the whole topic of instrument manufacture.

The second-half of this year I have bought 2 x tubas and throughout this process I have focussed a lot on “build quality”.

TUBA QUALITY
To me this consists of four components:
(1) Manufacturer reputation, (2) The tuba’s provenance, (3) Build quality at time of purchase, and (4) Sustained quality over many years of tuba use.
How it blows is excluded, simply to look at the engineering side of things.

MANUFACTURER REPUTATION
Manufacturers of anything are heavily reliant on their reputation for continued success.
This reputation is built-up over the years, but can be destroyed overnight.
This is where their client-base (or potential buyers) lose faith in the product that they produce.
Often this loss of faith is product quality related.
Bad news gets out and sales plummet.
For example: do you rate Rolex as a good manufacturer of watches? – I do. If I had money, I’d own one.

PROVENANCE
For many of the tubas that I was considering buying, it was almost impossible to find their manufacture provenance.
Provenance, that I am talking about, is simply where are the base materials sourced? Who made what from these metals?

I had discovered that certain old and well-respected named manufacturers had out-sourced manufacture and were likely sourcing brass sheet products from different mills than they once did.

Why did/ does this bother me?

Changing either the “who?” or “how?” in tuba manufacture can impact on the quality of that product immensely.

Look at the Rolls-Royce company which was nearly taken out of business by making such changes. They learnt a hard lesson.

WOT AM I TRYING TO SAY?
In a long-winded way, you are asking the right question.
Who has actually made this tuba?
Trust in who and how made = trust in build quality.
Branding is branding and it does not, necessarily, equate to quality from one year to the next.


PS. This is directed at Eastman? No, it is directed at all tuba manufacturers.

[Wyvern]

My worry with instruments made in China is really the working conditions and about the people actually making the instruments. If I buy a horn made in the US or Europe, I can be pretty reassured that the workers are making a decent wage and being treated well and the money I'm spending on the instrument is going to support them. It's something that I've been worried about for a while but after watching "American Factory" on Netflix, it really brought it home. I know some of the companies have some attractive looking videos, but it's something I think about quite a bit.

I can’t talk about Eastman, as have never visited their factory, but I can say the conditions at the Wessex factory are very equivalent to factories in Germany, having visited several German factories in the past. The workers have good conditions, the general atmosphere and teamwork is excellent and the workers renumeration is good for China. As in a normal year I am there at least 3-months of the year I know fully the conditions. When I do get back (no travel to China is possible at present due to Covid restrictions), I plan to make regular video blog during my visit showing what daily life is like at the factory and in China generally as I think there are a lot of misconceptions.

For the original posters point about quality, Wessex has been making huge strides in improving quality over the last few years. Instruments made today are unrecognisable as from the same factory as when Wessex started. This is due to us sorting quality issues one after the other, setting up dedicated team that understands quality requirements by just making horns just for Wessex (most companies want as cheap as possible from China, while Wessex wants quality) and putting in strict quality assurance on all production.