King Sousaphones (New megathread anyone?)

[Ltrain]

I recently became a King guy (probably for life) as a proud owner on an H.N. White King 1250 Satin Silver Sousaphone, vintage 1963. You can read about my journey in acquiring this horn below if you want, but TL;DR, the crux of this massive post is the result of searching, with little satisfaction, to learn more about the history and evolution of King sousaphone models (i.e. understanding the differences between the 1250 and 2350 models, etc). I also can’t find many good (or complete) discussions, here on TubeNet, or elsewhere for that matter, that really get into the nuances. There seem to be virtually limitless resources on Conn instruments (you can AMA about the history and nuance of models 10 through 48K!), but nothing nearly as complete exists regarding King sousas. Just read any thread discussing which gooseneck fits which era King and you’ll see what I mean firsthand. The information that does exist is quite confusing.

In the wake of TubeNet 2.0, I’m hoping this thread can A. serve as a resource for King owners and B. hopefully fill in some of the gaps not detailed on the legacy H.N. White website and C. be a place for us to show off our horns.

To Kick things off, here’s what I’ve learned (and questions raised) from cross-referencing https://www.hnwhite.com/ & http://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2012/12/ ... -conn.html (+ Wikipedia):

• Between 1910-1925 H.N. White began manufacturing bell-up helicons/sousaphones, followed shortly by bell-forward sousaphones:
  • The earliest Eb "raincatcher" shown on Hornucopia is #13323 c.1913-1915
  • The earliest BBb "raincatcher" shown is #65424 c.1918-1925

• 1924: in their ‘24 catalog, H.N. White publishes their modern bell-front Sousaphone, Symphony model 1250 with a cute ‘lil 22” bell and their now-standard .687” bore. Only the bell diameter and engraving will evolve, everything else will pretty much remain unchanged until the late 60s or early 70s

• 1928: introduction of the 1268 Jumbo

• 1932: Cadet model 1247 BBb

• ????: accurate release history and complete production timeline of 3 and 4 valve bell-front Ebs, Jr-sized instruments, and Jumbo/Giant instruments, and the 4-valve model 1251.

• 30s-50s: 1250 sold with now standard 26” bell, Giant model BBb sousaphone with 28” bell and .750” bore size (appears to have been an effort to outgun the 20K?)

• 1963: release of fiberglass model 1280 (birth year of my horn)

• 1964: logo changed to modern crown logo used today

• 1966: King acquired by Seeburg Corp. (the Borg), instrument division renamed “King Musical Instruments”

• 19??: model 1250 discontinued / model 2350 introduced with a modified valve wrap and bracing that prohibits left-hand tuning of the 1st valve slide (why???). Also, the first generation of 2350s seemed to have used the original leadpipe/gooseneck geometry employed since the first 1250(?)

• 1979/1983: Seeburg files for bankruptcy/King is reacquired by Swedish holding company UMI

• 1985: King instrument #999999 is produced and serialization is reset; model 2350 inexplicably changes leadpipe/gooseneck geometry to the now-modern standard (shorter vertical orientation, longer horizontal orientation found on today’s 2350s and all Conn sousas except 20/40K)

• 2000/2003: King is divested from UMI and absorbed by C.G. Conn (now under Steinway) and redevelopment as a product brand name to sell last remaining King models: 2350, 2370 (fiberglass), and 2360 (brass bell hybrid model) [exact release dates and discontinuation of 2360/70 is unclear)

• ????: at some point post-UMI, I think Conn also (re)released a model “14K” with a King 2350 bugle, wrap, and bell geometry, resulting in dozens of confusing for sale ads over the years. I’m not sure when this started/ended, but what I do know is the current “Conn” 36K is really a King 2370 with the Conn logo stamped on the bell

• ????: model 2350’s valve section is updated to be removable (did this happen under Seeburg or Conn?)

• ????-Present: The only true remaining Conn designs are the 20/40K. All other Conn-Selmer sousaphone models (2350 and fiberglass sousas) are 100% King in name and/or design. However, it’s not clear if the fiberglass models are discontinued as they are currently not listed on the Conn-Selmer website

That’s all I got! I would love some help filling in the gaps (especially regarding the 1250 vs 2350) and add some color to the story!

Optional reading (personal inspo/backstory):
Back in June of this year, I sold my super-custom Conn 36K with brass bell to buy a fancy new Wessex 4v Eb helicon. While I love the low register and broad tones of my Eastman compensating Eb, I learned an expensive lesson during my brief “quarantine fling” that no circle-shaped non-comp Eb horn will ever come close to replicating the low-register ease and band-carrying resonance of a contrabass sousaphone. This realization resulted in a repeated kicking myself for nearly 4 months until acquiring “Jackie O” in late August.

Before finding Jackie, I was still interested in the nimble smaller bore and reduced weight that I found to be a major upside of my summertime Eb sousa/helicon experimentation.

I was introduced to a friend of a friend who had a beat up 2350 [sic] sousaphone for sale on the cheap, and I was intrigued by the .687 bore size (exactly the same as my Eastman Eb), so I jumped on it (figuratively). Cosmetically, it looked like it had actually been jumped upon. But the real kick in the you-know-what was discovering the valves were completely shot (Hetman’s 97 couldn’t save these valves). However, the bones were good, as was the gorgeous satin silver finish, and the icing on the cake... it was revealed to actually be a coveted model 1250 (a true H.N. White King with top-action valve slides!!!). The rest is history.

The stars really aligned thanks to my trust in the expertise and guidance of J. Landress Brass here in NYC. So, a couple grand, a full overhaul, and a Dan Oberloh valve job later, I ended up with a (probably better than new) classic instrument for thousands less than a new Conn-Selmer 2350, and several hundreds less than any of the Chinese-made King copies from JP or Eastman (no negative connotation with Chinese instruments either – see my Eastman ravings in previous posts).

Needless to say, the investment was worth it. At a reasonable 24lbs, it’s a very nimble player with great intonation, projection, and a classic tone. I can nail a pedal Bb through Bb+ above the staff more securely than any other sousa I’ve played or owned. False tones are awesome too, and oh boy can this baby honk if you put some spit behind it! Nonetheless, I’m proud to be an H.N. White/King hipster!

This is a massive first post, but something I’d like to add as a follow-up is a record of my horn’s intonation tendencies as a way to document, learn, and compare to subsequent makes and models.

[brendanige]

This is COOL!!! I have a Martin. It’s an amazing horn!

[windshieldbug]

To get things rolling:
(all dates are Horn-u-copia)

The first Eb "raincatcher" that I'm aware of was #13323 c.1913-1915
The first BBb "raincatcher" that I'm aware of was #65424 c.1918-1925
The first three valve BBb bell-front that I'm aware of was #26737 c,1915-1918
The first three valve Eb bell-front that I'm aware of was #36543 c.1918-1925
The first four valve Eb bell-front that I'm aware of was #236347 c.1939

I have a 1941 four valve Eb.
Hope that helps,
Mike

[Yane]

I also have a 1939 vintage King Eb sousaphone that, like yours “looks like it was jumped on”, yet it actually plays quite well. I just use it in its battered state after minimal repairs. I suppose relative insensitivity to damage is a good thing in a marching horn, and I would like to hear if anybody else has experience with a horn that plays well despite some tubing seemingly crushed to half its diameter. That experience led me to get a 1250 and sent me on a repair journey that was considerable, but less drastic than yours and ended with a nice horn for reasonable money. Count me as another King sousaphone fan.

[MrBasseyPants]

Most old Kings should be using the “old style” (K191 from allied) leadpipe. It is the taller one of the two. Anything made from the 80s and newer uses the other leadpipe.

The 1270/1271 Giant is the same size as a Conn 20K but with a .750 bore. I have a 1271 from 1935. It is a fantastic player...big sound and is “lightweight” at about 35 pounds. It has an engraving that is fancy, but not 1920s fancy.

The 1265 Jumbo is the .810 bore monster. Larger in stature than the Conn 46K/48K but the bell tenion is actually 1/4in smaller than the Conn...but with the massive 32in bell that seems to be the most common....you’d never know. It seems like there were a few dozen or more Conn 46K/48K that were produced (there are a few dozen that seem to be owned by current and former tubenetters) with a handful of them being the 48K 4 valve variant. There only seems to be a dozen or so King 1265s. Sure that is all we know about today, but we may never know as there was a fire at the HN White factory in 1967 I believe that destroyed all of the records.

Anyway back to the 1265.... most of these had 32in bells and were 3 valves. Purdue University has a bone stock 4 valve version that is marched on the field still at almost 100 years old. I had the only other known 4 valve horn that may have been a prototype as it had an oddball 26in bell. The horn was in terrible shape, but the valve section was restored and silver plated and grafted onto another Jumbo. So I have an all King z4 valve 1265...but all parts not original to the same horn.

The King Jumbos were all made in 1925-1926 in what may have just been one batch or so. They are obscenely large and heavy. ...and to be honest the Giant version was infinitely more transportable and gave a very close sound. However, the Jumbo is truly a special instrument. The engraving is phenomenal and huge.

Conn’s Jumbo production seemed to go from the mid 1920s to the early 1930s I believe.

In my opinion, during what seemed to be the size war of the 1920s...king just made their existing designs bigger (not longer) while a Conn 40K and a Conn 48K where not just different sizes...but a bit different in design as well. The conn Jumbos offer a more compressed stacking of the branches to assist with ergonomics while King just went Huge!

As for sound? The 1271 is phenomenal, but I thought the 3 valve 1265 was just OK...especially when compared to a Conn 40K or a Conn 48K. I would put the 4 valve 1265 on par with the 48K...however, the Conns sound more tuba-like whereas the Kings have a nice sousaphone growl to them. One thing that only the Jumbos can really do is shake your whole body when playing a low F.... for me....that is worth the struggle ...then again I only play the Jumbo at 4th of July and Tuba Christmas....or if I can sneak it in to a concert...which is obviously difficult

There is/was a ton of info on here about the King horns...especially the bigger bunch. I hope it hasn’t all disappeared.

I myself continue to half-heartedly look for a King 1251 4 valve horn with the .687 bore just to have 4 valves in three sizes....surprisingly those may be the rarest of all!

jc

[RobertNunez]

Does the King Sousaphone Model 1271 have three valves or Four?
Thanks