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Probably a good idea. In several of the (public) high schools around here, the concert band is completely separate from the marching band--the BD for marching and concert and different people. In one, the BD also directs the orchestra.

As in so many things, the thing that sets the best high school apar from the others is socio-economic. The HS in my end of town last year had one Curtis admission (tuba) and one Juilliard (percussion). The school doesn't own wonderful equipment (a student gets a rather badly maintained YBB-321 for a tuba), but the parents are dedicated and the many kids own their own instruments and take private lessons.

Which just goes to show that there's public schools and public schools.

Question #1: How much better musicians would young instrumentalists be without the distraction of various athletic seasons intruding on their endeavors?

It is certainly possible to have a strong band program and also comply with the principal's or supervisor's desire for marching band. In my county, this happens at several schools. (There are only 8 high schools). The marching program is very watered down however - but they do have it.

As far as your question, some would probably be better. But, any student who really wants to be good will get there no matter what the distractions.

Stefan

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Charlie makes some very good points. I've been out of high school for 14 years now, and I just can't believe how high school music programs have changed. There is such an emphasis on competitions, both marching band (well, mostly) but also concert band. I remember the good old days when we played for the enjoyment of the audience. I have friends from college in music ed, and I recognize the types of band directors that seem to want all kinds of glory for themselves at the expense of the kids. Now that I'm a parent myself, I'm sure I'll have stronger opinions on this as my kids get older.

About switching between marching and concert band, I don't know. One observation I made a long time ago: when I went to study music (and pre-med) in college, I no longer did the marching band thing, just ensembles and solo, I feel that I became a better player. Was it the great one on one instruction I had with lots of time to practice? Was it the lack of BLAT BLAT marching band playing?? I don't know. I think there is a place for marching band and I would never give up that experience if I had to do all over again. However, if my kids have schedules like the one listed above due to marching band, I'll have something to say about it.

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Wow!!! Charlie, I knew there were some abuses going on in many Texas 5A high schools. I had no idea it was that band, anywhere. I used to BE a 5A band director in Texas. I never took my band to more than two marching contests and two concert contests. We had a two week summer camp, with six hours a day. I thought that was quite a bit.

I did, however, see may things in the business which really turned me off. I am now teaching in 1A. Although it has its problems, I don't really want to go back to 5A.

I am quite concerned about the effect all of this is having on bands(and music making, in general). The biggest problem, from my viewpoint, is marching band. Marching bands generally are going to too many contests. Everything seems to hinge around competition. Competition, in moderation, is a good thing. Carried to the extremes that it often is, it is not good. All too often, the excess is due to the overambition of the band director. I believe we need to remember that we are there for the primary purpose of teaching music. Along with this, we will teach many life skills. I don't feel that burning kids out helps to achieve anything positive.

In defense of band directors, I offer the following. First of all, many director are quite sincere in thinking they are doing all this for the students. Obviously, I disagree that it is in the students' best interest. Secondly, if a director wishes to be a "successful" band director, this is how it is done. For many, many places, this is simply what is expected of the band director. Many who read what I am writing will find this difficult to believe. Well, it is true.

Lastly, I would say there are many directors who have very fine bands--bands I would like to be part of. They are able to do this without going to such extremes. Depending on their location, this is possible. It is not easy. Band directors have created this monster. I don't see the monster being destroyed by any other means than that we will continue to lose many good kids who simply don't want to be abused.

This seems to be a hot topic, and not just among the brotherhood of tubists gathered here. Texas has just completed a very lengthy study and analysis of marching band and the pros & cons of rehearsal time vs. competition and the like. I will preface this by saying that I am currently an assistant band director at a very successful 5A band program in Texas. We do two weeks of summer band, 2-3 marching competitions in the fall, and in the spring our top group will play at somewhere between 3 & 5 festivals/competitions, with the non-varsity level groups doing 1 or 2 (some competitions are for varsity-level groups only).

In my mind, everything we do is a means to and end. What is the goal of the public school music educator? The answer to this question is simple: make young students better people and better citizens by making them better players and better ensemble members. But how is this achieved? Success is a reflection of quality, quality is a reflection of hard work, and hard work is a reflection of character. These are the principles that we hold our students to, not how they finish in a competition. If the band director has the proper ideals/goals in mind and pursues them in a professional manner, then the students will benefit in countless ways.

Several of you on this thread seem to be from Texas, so I'll offer you a little insight. Come hear our band play this weekend. We play in the Lone Star Festival at Richardson High School (right off Beltline) Friday evening around 6PM. The following day we play at the Texas State Wind Ensemble Contest at Bates Hall (I think that's the right one) on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin. You'll get to hear high school students play unbelievable music, including the band arrangment of Samuel Barber's First Symphony. I know I'm biased because I'm a part of this program, but just come out and hear us play if you get a chance. It just might change the way you think about public school music programs, in Texas and elsewhere.

TubaRay wrote: I don't see the monster being destroyed by any other means than that we will continue to lose many good kids who simply don't want to be abused.

Ray, the danged secondary school athletics program gets a free ride from abuse. Play football in exchange for preferential treatment (or admission); become an invalid later in life from being tackled by 320 lb. linemen. Of course, the linemen, being as heavy as they are, will probably have more than a few years shaved off their life expectancy.

One of UofO's women's basketball "stars" who graduated a couple of years ago to turn pro has announced she's dropping out of playing. Her physicians say she's got the knees of a 70-year old arthritic cripple. So the good news is that the abuse seems not to be gender-specific.

In light of what goes on in secondary-school training camp--oops, amateur athletics, the band stuff is small potatoes.

Sorry, this belongs on the "Other" topic area.

This is a topic worth discussing, but only under the pretense that our discussions will do virtually no good. There is no global solution to music education...except for its eventual extermination. There is not enough being done in terms af quality control and curriculum control. Band Directors are given a job, without much guidance, and put to work in the classroom, usually with a demand from a principal to have a band at foorball games. It is really left to the skills and character of the Band Director at each school as to how he will run his program and educate the children in it. Short of just getting a new band director, there is nothing that can be done if you don't like it (other than pulling your kid out).

That being said, there are just too many things stacked against band directors these days. Academic requirements make it harder to recruit and retain students in band, middle school directors are becoming less and less effective in the classroom, and don't get me started on pop culture and what it is doing to the arts.

As far as marching bands are concerned: They are still fun, and that is why people still do them. I will admit that my best playing was never on the field, although some of my loudest may have been. There is a balance that can be met to not over-run the importance of a marching band. The true test of a band program is, and should always be its concert bands. The concert band is what is ecpected to be taught in the academic curriculum. make this the main focus of your program, and you are working on the right things. The concert programs develop the bet musical skils. Marching band can be an important supplement to the concert program. it should be done in this capacity, as an additional outlet that stems from the concert academic teaching program. Keep the hours involved in marching band reasonable, and things should be fine. It is really hard to put an hour rule limit on time spent in band, when you have to count football games and rehearsals and competition and travel..although there could be some limits placed, usually by the parents that put up red flags when a band director piles on too much work. 8 hours is more than enough REHEARSAL time in a week.

The program I am involved with does not touch anything marching band related until band camp in late July. Camp is 9 days, all day. When school starts up, marching band is T, TH 3:20-6 PM, with a one hour music sectional once a week before school, 6:45-7:45 AM. Percussion and guard have an additional practice day also. This is a managable work load, and works for one of the premiere programs in NC. Concert band is the focus of the program, marching band is a fun outlet that is still taken seriously to insure quality. With this program, competitions should be thought more of as performances than competitions. We don't talk about winning and losing, only performing to the best of your ability. i wouldn't clasify this band as being really competitive, although they win a lot because winning is a by product of hard work and skill.

I don't have the answers. i do know that in my part of the world, I try to do it the right way, and surround myself with people who are also trying to do it right. thats may be the only answer. Fix what you can control.

How to pay for it is another discussion, and the poop is starting to hit the fan on the topic of band fees around here.

To "The Impaler," my response is that I know there are many quality programs who maintain some balance in what they do. Although I'm sure I would enjoy your band's performance, I don't think it would change my opinion of Texas bands. I know there are many fine ones. Some of them even learn more than four tunes for their marching show and three tunes for the concert program. You don't have to convince me that this is true. It is the many others which spend an enormous amount of time learning to perfect marching drills, memorizing music, and learning very little else. Those are the programs which concern me.

Chuck G.: If you bring up sports, you raise another area where we have lost our way. Our entire culture has placed far too much emphasis on sports. I believe schools should have athletic programs. I believe they should have bands. I also believe they should include some balance with LIFE. As far as school bands go, I believe we are driving away a significant number of kids. As to the athletic programs, I just don't know where that is headed. How long will it take kids(and their parents) to figure out the odds of an NFL/NBA/MLB, etc. career? I don't know the answer to this question. And as far as pop culture is concerned, I don't believe anyone on the TubeNet would want to get me started in that area.

Both Chuck G. and "The Impaler" have both accurately and eloquently spoken. I appreciate this very much. But I am afraid Charlie's son is like a lot of kids in our bands. Some programs figure out how to make things work. Others don't. For me, I doubt the band could possibly have asked too much of me. I was, and am, passionate about music. However, those such as myself don't represent the majority. I believe our school band's need to take in interest in our kids in a broader spectrum than on just those who are so passionate.

I really like the way this thread is going, and the ideas and opinions voiced. But let me throw in another aspect. I grew up in a small school (my graduating class was 79) in a very small town. The band program was small, but good. However, students from smaller areas, and even some from larger areas do more than just one thing. I played ten years of football and basketball in the midst of band, and ended up doing reasonable well in all three. However, I chose music as my career because that's what I was really passionate about. I guess I'm a musician who just happens to be an athlete as well. And although I'm just about to be 26 years old, many mornings my knees and wrists feel like they're closer to retirement age or worse. I have to use a wrist brace at times to hold my euphonium properly without pain, and it really sucks.

But the $64,000 question is this: would I have given it up to be a (much) better euphonium player in high school? Absolutely not. The things I learned being a part of many football and basketball teams have been and continue to be extremely applicable in my current music education profession. Plus, it helps me relate to potential students who want to quit band for athletics.

Another interesting idea: many (perhaps even most) students who are in our school bands are NOT there because they're passionate about music. They're there because they're passionate about BAND. They're there because they want to belong to a successful group of like-minded young people. Most won't continue their music education beyond high school. That's what band in the secondary schools is all about. So in order to create a successful program, you don't have to have the smartest, brightest, richest, etc, etc kids in your program. You want every kid, but you want them to understand that success is built on quality, accountability, and motivation.

We must remember we're not just training our future music performers and educators. We're mostly training our future doctors, lawyers, businessmen, politicians, sales clerks, bank tellers, etc, etc. The goal of band isn't to create great musicians, it is to create great people. And if that goal is constantly be achieved, success follows every step of the way. Sorry for the mini-book here, but we're all right about one thing: things need to be done to help our music education programs. We need better teachers, and more of them. We need more funding so we can provide our students with the most quality experience possible, and the greatest possibility for individual success. Again I'm thankful for this medium in which we can share these ideas with one another.

This is a great topic for discussion. This topic should be about the longevity for music education programs in secondary schools.

As a music teacher who deals with secondary students daily, I see both the good and not so good from marching bands in secondary schools. In the Jax, FL area some of the best high school bands have marching bands. they seem to put the emphasis in the right areas. However, some bands use the marching band as the primary teaching tool. These programs are not so good. The local arts magnet does not have a marching band. They consistantly have the best prepared students to enter and continue at the college level.

I feel at this point that I should state that I went to high school through an excellent program with both marching and concert programs. What my band director did for me was to instill the interest to pursuit a career in music. I am thankful for his wisdom and guidance.

However, in secondary music education most students do not not go this route. It is imperative that we teach these students to be our future consumers of live and recorded music. As we all know it is much easier to sit at home and watch the TV and takes commitment to drive to the local symphony, college etc. for a concert. Before TV, that is what people did for entertainment.

With all the extra time required for marching band, these students get burned out by the overload from the competative curcuit and decide to give up playing after high school. If we want the instrumental music education business to continue, a change in course must be made.

The decision is VERY difficult as the money involved in Marching programs is the majority of the expendature for a high school music program. Many local secondary music programs make thousands of dollars hosting marching events and that further supplies funds to their program. The money has to come from somewhere. Further, the marching band is the most visable, recognizable and attended music events of the year.

I wish I had some answers to supply for the longevity of secondary music and live music in genreal, other than to suggest that the training of future music consumers is our most important activity. I also suggest that as parents we must help our children decide their musical goals and limits and use their local high school program to learn to enjoy listening to all kinds of music - not just what is rammed down our throats from the record companies. Get up off the couch and support live music - either as a player or audience member. Your life will be better for it. [/u]

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"Take a music bath once or twice a week for a few seasons, and you will find that it is to the soul what the water bath is to the body"
-Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

I agree with the person that thinks we should be training kids to be future consumers of music. Good band students will end up being good doctors and lawyers and teachers...and musicians. In most schools, the band students represent the best a school has to offer among the student body. they get good grades, are smart and talented and motivated...mostly because they are in band, and learn to be this way from it. Even with all the negative things going on with band, it is still a valuable activity, including marching band. i would rather my kid (if I ever have any) learn teamwork, work ethic, leadership, followership, self discipline, creative thought, some physical activity, through band than from a football coach, any day. Band directors are faced with near impossible jobs to begin with. they need more support. most are open to philosophical approach discussions. try it.

O.k....o.k.... I was not going to get into this, but I feel I have to. I am a band director of some small success in extremely rural middle Tennessee. I do marching band because 99.9 % of my community would NEVER see my program if not for football band.

We have 300 kids in the high school (the only one in the county) and 30 kids in the H.S. band. We have a one week camp and run a 8 to 8 schedule with a one hour nap-time after lunch. We go to the Associational regional marching festival and a small band festival in both marching band and concert band. We put on six full concerts a year and place students in all region and all state bands. Half my band is in special education and in the last ten years I have had two valedictorians and three salutatorians.

But most of my students will not pursue music after high school. The social aspects of marching band are probably the best memories they take with them. I will admit that marching band is what I was in H.S. band for, and why I marched drum corps (but back in the 70's when it was louder than artistic). It was not until I became more mature and more sophisticated that I started to value the concert band side. That is when I traded my slide rule for a baton and became a music major. I can teach my kids a lot of "life lessons" on the field or in the bandroom. A great many of them would not stick around for the instruction and inspiration if it were not for marching band.

We all have opinions and deep rooted feelings on marching band. Being a music education professor and an adjudicator at marching band contests, I am constantly reminded of the potential conflict between marching band and the ideals of an aesthetic education.

There are many reasons for a band program to invest heavily in its marching program. These reasons range from reaching an expanded audience and building school and community relations to developing a high quality product for competing.

On the other hand, I submit that nearly all of the great things that can be learned in marching band are extra-musical. In short, from a musical standpoint, quality learning happens mostly indoors. I guess the value of marching band depends on how heavily we value the "other" things (leadership, comraderie, competitive success, decibles, etc.). I happen to think that this "other" stuff is important, too. Of course, in moderation.

Opinions aside, what does the research literature say? Thomas Rohrer found that highly competitive bands from Florida had a significantly lower percentage of students continue with music after high school than did bands who did not place a high emphasis on competitive marching. There is at least one study that refutes this using a data set from Southern California. The one common finding is that females tend to be less likely to continue with music if they come from competitive marching programs. I would like to see a study done in Texas where marching band appears to be taken to a more obsessive level than most of the country. The research literature does not uniformly show that marching band causes "burn out" among marching members, but it is heavily supported.

I think it is important to note that there is no research (that I have found) that states that you can't make great music in marching band or that marching band is uniformly bad. The activity is what the director makes of it. Good show design and quality educating will always trump the nazi approach to marching band. From a judging standpoint, the bottom line is how well you perform your show. All the props and expensive toys in the world don't help a bit if the band doesn't play well.

I have been focusing on competitive bands in this long winded reply. For pleasing principals of high schools, all a band needs to do is play the National Anthem and the school's fight song really well. Generally, all they want is to see all the money being poured into the band being used in support of the school and community.

I have to take issue with the notion that marching band is a waste of time. I agree that it is not the most effective means of improving musical technique, and the musical selections are usually not "serious music" -- but neither was Joe S's recent game-show-winners dixie cruise. Not all music is serious.

Also, putting on a half-time show is more about showmanship than concert band. Yes, that is other-than-pure-music, but is showmanship unimportant?

There are, of course, the already mentioned advantages of leadership and teamwork. But I think the main reason I'm glad my son is in a very excellent marching band (Bearden H.S., Knoxville TN) is that it's the one aspect in most of those kids' lives -- certainly the only aspect in school -- where a so-so job is not congratulated as though it were something extraordinary. They are expected to do it right. Have to do it a zillion times to get it right? Okay, if that's what it takes, but there is genuine accountability to get it right. The really talented ones will get that in the spring, in concert band; but the marginally talented can still be on the right spot, with the right foot, at the right time, and actually EARN some "self-esteem" by working to achieve excellence.

FWIW, I went to a high school where the marching band was so-so, and the director made us be in marching band if we wanted to be in concert band. At my son's school, students can be in either, neither, or both, and the marching and concert band programs BOTH will exceed 200 students next year in a school of 1800 students. The marching band is one of the finest in the region, and the symphonic band was selected to play at the state music educators' association convention. Also, my son has gone in one year from a kid who couldn't play a Bb scale in tune to a kid who plays pretty well and reads better than I could when I graduated High School.

I'll give a lot of credit to a director who really has a way of getting the best out of the kids. They do two weeks of 4-hour-per day camp and one week of 8-hour-per-day, then class time plus one after-school (two hours) per week during the school year. That's more than 8 hours per week, but it's less than I did when I was in HS.
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Joe Baker, whose son can't wait 'til he's good enough to join the community band I play in.

In my earlier post, I brought up several points of abuse(my wording & opinion) in regards to many high school bands. Marching bands are, in my estimation, usually the biggest offenders. "Tubamom" brings up the issue of money. How ugly would you like to get? She is absolutely correct in saying that in order to compete, bands almost always have to spend buckets of cash. This is true in BOA events and it is true in the Texas state marching contest. What ever happened to the days of marching bands being judged on MARCHING and PLAYING. I seem to be in the minority of band directors, in that I like to see and hear good playing. Well, actually, I guess most directors like that, too. They don't all stop at that, though. There seems to be a demand for more and more show stuff. This usually costs a lot of dough and an additional demand on kids time.

I don't have any particular objection to bands putting on a big show. Do we think that it comes at no cost? It is actually a fairly complex issue. I am expressing my frustration in regards to some of the by-products of it all. I am not attempting to say I know the solutions. I only know that not all of its effects are good ones.

The money/cost issue is going to become more and more of an issue around here for bands. There are many bands here that are rehearsing marching band as a class, in the academic calendar and school day, and those kids have to pay the band fee...which can be between 400 and 900 dollars per student. Thats too much to take a public school offered curriculum class. This wouldn't be a problem if the school system and schools would offer up any money to help with operational costs. The only help the bands get is a new uniform for the band every nine years. better than nothing. band fees are a must to function, but they can get out of control if you let them, and it is getting there fast. it would not surprise me if lawyers get into it before long. I am wondering if that will be the final blow that cuts music education from our programs.

Its funny that the local news ran a story last week about the athletic programs in the county are going to have to start charging the participants a fee to play for the school teams. How unthinkable????well, the bands have been doing it for YEARS.

Competition and money seem to be simmering to the top of this thread, and rightly so. However, we must remember that there are always several ways to look at potentially negative impacts. My boss, and 25+ year Texas band director (who incidentally just earned his doctorate in music education) is a constant source of inspiration and positive thinking when it comes to these factors that occur away from the music-making process.

First: competition. Is it a good thing? A bad thing? I guess it depends on your viewpoint, but let's look at it from the perspective of a high school student who's about to be going to college and eventually become a taxpayer and a member of the American workforce. How many jobs, musical or otherwise, are NOT competitive? Virtually none (yes, I know, there are exceptions). But especially in our line of work, getting a job most times is ALL about competition, whether it's winning an audition or winning a faculty spot at the university level, or whatever. So it makes sense to me that teaching our students about competition, teaching them preparation, discipline, and how to set goals and follow through, might be the MOST beneficial thing we teach them as a member of a high school band. The factors that go into creating a successful competitive performance at this level are the exact same factors that translate to professional life. Plus, there's the added bonus of adjudication. You apply for a job, and then don't get it, the potential employers don't give you a list of what they liked and didn't like about you and how you could make it better in the future. This is exactly what we provide our students via the competitive arena, whether it be in the fall or the spring. What a huge advantage and preparatory learning tool!!!

Second: money. Yes, it's horrible to require students (and 99% of the time their parents) to write a check just to be in band, or to compete, or whatever. Plus, in our situation, that's impossible because of the socio-economic diversity of our student body. So we provide them with unbelievably easy fundraisers that provide an average of an 85% profit margin, aided every step of the way by motivated parents (and directors) that allow them not only to pay for any and all trips taken during the year, but also fund the band program. In many cases, students pay for their entire year's activities, plus all their private lessons and their choice of a summer band camp entirely through the fundraising opportunities provided them during the school year. It is an unbelievable cooperative effort including the students, their parents, the directors, the community as a whole, and the corporate community as well.

There is not a problem facing music educators today that cannot be solved and turned into a true benefit for every student. What is lacking most of the time is our unwillingess to plan, our lack of vision, or a focus that is anything other than the absolute best possible music education of our students. It is a true joy to be in a situation like the one I am in, and be a part of the incredible music-making of incredible students.