Arrival of new baby

[GeoffC_UK]

I bought a brand new tuba.
Got it home 3 weeks back.
Played tuba for decades and am no novice.
This tread is about my expectations, having just spent more than 13,500 USD on an instrument (without case, as that was extra).
Fine horn.
Lot of money, but….

What am I getting at?
If you bought a car, boat, computer, holiday, or whatever for this sort of money, what would (or should) you expect to get when you buy?

(a) The thing, itself;
(b) Suggestions on cases (soft and hard) that are currently available that will fit your tuba;
(c) A spare set of basic consumable spares, including where more can be bought and their order code;
(d) Warranty (dated, term, and associated caveats of that cover)
(e) User guide (on-line, may be) including:
- Diagram with functioning/ moving parts,
- What things to do when you first get hold of your shiny new horn;
- Typical method/ sequence of tuning;
- Any handling advice;
- Care and maintenance guidelines, including suggestions on oil and grease types, plus any tools needed;
- Potential faults and likely fixes (whether self DIY or specialist repairer or return to manufacturer)

Whilst many of you will read my list and question my sanity, I was a little shocked how little I got when my new tuba arrived: just (a) nothing else.

Please add to this list from your own experiences. Clearly, nothing crazy like supply a replacement valve as a spare.

But, I will update and post at a later date.

I know some instrument manufacturers are better than others at (a) to (e), so this is not a dig at any particular one.

But what should they provide, and what could they, to make life a little easier for us users……….?

[rkirkconnell]

I see quite a few factors at play here, but most of it comes down to the same idea. First, I think your comparison to a car/computer is not a perfect analogy - cars and computers are semi-essential items that most people need to facilitate their daily living/enjoyment, but a $13,000+ tuba is sold as a professional's tool, purchased after doing thorough background research and introspection. Ironically, you would expect to see more "goodies" at lower price points (products that are meant more for students/hobbyists). However, tuba players have wildly different preferences when it comes to extras (cases, tools, even valve oil/grease), and I could easily see how a lot of things would simply go to waste; therefore, I think most would prefer to have the cost of the horn stripped down closer to the actual cost of the manufacture + labor, and then they can deal with whatever else they need the way they want.

Your point (b) would typically be handled by the retailer, not the manufacturer, and while it may not have been given to you outright, I'm sure you could ask. Again, it may come down to so many professionals having thoughts and plans going into the sale. As for (c), a lot of musicians don't do much if any of their own maintenance because it's a separate skill set that can cause huge problems if done wrong. Again, with (e), most people who are spending more than 10 grand on a tuba already know how they work well enough to figure out the rest with a look-over.

The biggest concession I'll make is the issue of a warranty. It would be great to have a formal warranty included with any purchase (I know makers like Eastman and Wessex are using this as a way to overcome the Chinese manufacturing stigma). I honestly don't know what if anything you get with other makers (largely because I'm too poor to buy the horns I want new anyway), but you likely have a reputation that you can trust, at the very least.

[GeoffC_UK]

I see quite a few factors at play here.....at the very least.

Much of what you said went through my mind before I posted.
This is why I used the words "question my sanity" because I am challenging that "norm" (Well, I think I am).

For instance:
Most of my list is product knowledge about a specific horn.
I can't see why it's so difficult for the manufacturer to share that.
Miraphone do it.
Use of platforms such as Youtube would surely make it easy to do. And promote their products in the process.
Why not get one of their associated artists to give useful information on horn care rather than simply, ".... this tuba expresses the values I have as a performer...".

I still don't know how to tune my baby. That is a "knowledge gap" that I have.

I have enjoyed posting on this site.
It has helped me close some of my knowledge gaps for sure.
I could use this site to understand the best way to tune the particular horn I have.
But, my point being, that the manufacturer is best placed to capture all such golden nuggets of knowledge and share them.
Why is that a bad thing?

[pittbassdaddy]

Learning a new instrument is a journey. It starts with how you played your old instrument. There may be things that you were adjusting subconsciously with the old one that do not apply to the new one.

Intonation issues may be specific to a model or individual instruments and can vary due to manufacturing tolerances and skill of the craft assembling the instrument.

Grab a tuner and tune the open bugle. As long as you aren't far off with the main tuning slide all the way in or out, things should be workable.

Start with long tones and determine how the instrument wants you to blow. I usually start with a very warm wide airstream (think fogging a mirror) and gradually increase the focus and velocity of the airstream (think as narrow as the mouthpiece throat right down the middle). Larger piston instruments tend to want more of the former, while smaller rotary instruments tend to want more of the latter. This process can take minutes or days, so be patient.

Next I try different mouthpieces to obtain the desired level of projection and clarity. The mouthpiece that you used before is the place to start since you are familiar with it. The one came with the instrument is usually a good a good fit for the instrument and should be used next to offer some perspective. This part usually requires recording yourself and/or a trusted ear. Grab that tuner again and set up all your tuning slides. If both mouthpieces don't seem quite right, ideally go to a music store that has a good selection of mouthpieces and try them out to see what works. You could also query the forums to see what works for others on your specific model of instrument, but mouthpieces are a very personal choice. Some people and instruments are more sensitive to mouthpieces than others.

Then play music that you are familiar with and listen for anything that sounds off with the intonation. Take notes. Come back to your notes and play long tones/scales. Is the issue consistent to a specific combination of valves? Adjust slides to correct. Is it consistently out for a specific note? Can it be lipped in tune without adversely impacting tone or projection? Alternate fingerings? How does slide pulling improve the note?

Move to a different room and repeat the above. Some rooms make things more difficult than others. Be sure not to point the bell into a corner of a small room (I did this for a while and was amazed when I turned around and pointed the bell in the opposite direction - so many response issues just vanished).

That should be enough to get you started. Come back to the tuner as needed and as always LISTEN!

[GeoffC_UK]

Learning a new instrument is a journey. It starts with how you played your old instrument. There may be things that you were adjusting subconsciously with the old one that do not apply to the new one....... the tuner as needed and as always LISTEN!

Thanks very much for your thoughtful advice.

As stated, I am no novice, however, most of my experience is on British Besson's (B&H) 3+1 which are compensated.

I can tune a Besson with my eyes shut and one arm tied behind my back.

My new baby is 5v (4 x pistons, 1 x rotary) and non-compensating. Plus, I had to change my regular mouthpiece, too.

In your post you say that it could take some time (days). This remark eases my concerns over tuning greatly.

I have already had 2 x sessions focussed on tuning with an electronic tuner, but I am still not there.

Started on "open" over 2 x octaves (middle register).
Then individually #1st, #2nd, #3rd, and #4th pistons followed by the #5th rotary (middle register, no octave).
Then tuned various combinations of these valves.
Mostly in middle register are now near "in tune" with my chops/ lips able to do the rest.

What I have not done is checked the low register tuning.
Including whether the #5th needs to be tuned correctly or is better to be tuned slightly flat/sharp.
Then discovering what fingering delivers the best in-tune when playing downstairs in the basement.

Then repeat this process for the upper register, but focussed far more on #1st to #3rd pistons.

My original post only suggests that a manufacturer's "A typical process of tuning this tuba is......" would be a useful thing to accompany it upon delivery.

Thanks again, Geoff

[tclements]

When I purchase a tuba, it is one of 2 things: I trust the seller implicitly to tell me everything I need to know to buy the instrument and purchase it on his/her recommendation, or I give the horn a good going over, play it with my section in my hall to see if it suits my needs. Most of the time (but not always), there is SOME kind of return policy (i.e. Wessex). I am one of those that will not send out a tuba of mine. Simply, I have had TOO MANY tubas damaged, or returned filthy to let my instruments out of my sight. Instead, I offer to let a potential purchaser come here, stay at my house (I'm 10 minutes from the San Jose airport, Greyhound and Amtrak) and play the horn 24 hours a day to make sure it will suit their needs. I have a Peterson tuner here to help with pitch questions. If the purchaser needs help, I will advise on care and maintenance of the instrument. Cases, mouthpieces and the like, that might make the instrument more attractive for purchase, really add no value to the instrument. I have 3 brand new MW cases in my shed, because I prefer Cronkhite bags. My expectations: the horn plays as advertised, is damage free (except for lacquer wear), NO VALVE NOISE, and is CLEAN!!! Once, I got a horn so dirty, I almost BARFED upon playing it.

[GeoffC_UK]

When I purchase a tuba, it is one of 2 things: I trust the buyer ...... upon playing it.

You provide a good service, that is clear.

[PeteDenton]

Hi Geoff,

I'm in the UK and have been playing 5 and 6 valve uncompensating tubas for over 30 years. They take sometime to get used to be I love the flexibility they give around alternative fingerings for tweaking intonation. Once it's safe for people to meet again, I'd be very happy to meet up if you're not too far (I'm in West Yorkshire) - or maybe do something over Zoom?

In terms of a warranty, even if you have nothing in writing, if it was purchased brand new you have consumer rights so keep any proof of purchase you have (https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds).

If you bought 2nd hand, you still have some rights, especially if the seller wasn't open and honest about the condition of the item.

Hope this is helpful

Pete

[GeoffC_UK]

Hi Geoff,

I'm in the UK and have been playing 5 and 6 valve uncompensating tubas for over 30 years.......... the condition of the item.

Hope this is helpful

Pete

Hello Pete
Most useful intel. Thanks.
You know that in UK it's 3+1 compensated, so I have had to go through a learning curve, but feel I'm getting there.
Hear: https://youtu.be/Ova9W0WZ1LQ.
Happy to chat online. I think I have Zoom account somewhere.
I live in Leicestershire but holiday in Yarksha often as my family hails from Middlesbrough.
Booked into Haworth in September for a week for a family get-together.
Cheers
Geoff

[PeteDenton]

Hi Geoff

Sounds nice on your YouTube clips.

Yes I found going from compensated 3+1 to uncompensated 5v was a challenge in 1987 when I made the change - but once I learnt that there are no rules (except press the valves that work best for you on any given note) it got easier. It messed with my head a couple of years ago when I got my F tuba because that had the 'new' flat whole step 5th valve (which is probably what your Willson has). My CC and the F and BBb I'd had before used the 'old' two step 5th valve system.

A bit of slide pulling can be handy but if you set things up reasonably OK you can keep that to a minimum. I find I need to do less slide pulling on the flat whole step 5th valve system than I did on the two step system - but the valve combinations fall better under my fingers with the old system.

I'm not a million miles from Haworth if you have some free time when you're up here.

Cheers

Pete

[GeoffC_UK]

Hi Geoff

......free time when you're up here.

Cheers

Pete

Yup.
Sounds exactly the same path of discovery that I am going down.
Probably your footprints I see in front of me, Pete.
All your observations are golden nuggets, thanks.

I have found it hard, I believe, because I had had a 15 year break from playing until the summer 2020.
Left brass bands in 1994. Played orchestrally for a few years. My interest just fell away. Now back to full-on (at home, at least).

You seem to play with City of Bradford Band - Good man!

Until last summer I had only blown 3+1 in brass bands and orchestras.
Then, in 2020, I had trialed a Miraphone. But the strangeness of rotaries, 5 valves, and non-compensating just put me off buying - bit of a coward, I guess.
Then found a new-old stock Hirsbrunner Eb for sale - front action and compensating. That deal fell through. Shame.
Ended up with my Willson Eb front action which, other than being very heavy, is a smashing blow.

Tuned my 5v to concert-C natural at start, hence, why I asked, ".. where are the manufacturer's instructions?"
C-concert has turned out to sound very flat and I moved the slide to suit what I hear rather than what the meter tells me.
I am in a much better place with the overall tuning, in all registers, than I was 2 weeks ago.

Further, I had always used a Bach 24AW mouthpiece. Never changed.
But these continental tubas enticed me away.
Bought 6 mouthpieces trying to find the one. - Bit of an unwanted collection.
Now back to Bach and my old reliable friend.

Who do you use to service your tubas? - I have one or two names, but would be interested in who you use.
With 3+1 : I do all my own servicing.
With my Willson and its Rotax valve I understand it needs to be serviced every ~18 months....?? (repeat, "... where are..")

When in Haworth I will be out and about each day, so can try to meet up for a chat about these odd continental beauties (WC 27th onwards).

Thanks again, Geoff

[PeteDenton]

Thanks Geoff,

Looking at you YouTube I guess you played for Sunlife Band? I played in BTM around the same time (1987 to 1994) so we probably have a good few friends in common!

Yes I'm playing for City of Bradford Brass now - like you I also had a break in playing from 2008 to 2017 and I'm still finding my way back into it. New tubas make for good motivation

A handy thought that I just remembered when playing 1/2 hour ago to help with converting from compensated to 5v. Think about the amount of extra tube on the player side of a compensating valve that is added when used in combination with the 4th valve - that's the amount you need to think about adding using new uncompensated combinations:

Compensated: 5v guide (assuming your 5th is a flat whole tone) - experiment from here?

2+4 adds about 1/8 tone 2+4 with a good low tongue and jaw
1+4 adds about 1/4 tone 5+4
1+2+5 adds about semitone 5+1+4 (may be a touch flat but you can either lip it or push a slide)
2+3+4 adds about 3/4 tone This one I find most difficult - 1+3+4 is sharp but 1+3+4 is flat so lip and/or slide pulling needed
1+3+4 adds about a whole tone 5+1+3+4
1+2+3+4 add just over a whole tone 5+1+2+3+4 with a good low tongue and jaw

Every tuba is different so what works on one may not be best on another - hopefully that's useful starting point for your explorations.

Also I always write my 5v fingerings starting at the thumb (it seems more logical than numerical) so the order I write them is 5-1-2-3-4 (the order they lie on your hand).

In terms of maintenance I have mainly done it myself. If did need work done I'd probably go to Mark Carter aka Mr Tuba. I've known him over 30 years and since he's a tuba specialist (and tuba player) I'd feel confident in him. If I needed something urgently I might phone my friends at Rath trombones (they're only about 10 miles from me) since I understand they used to work regularly on Patrick Harrild's tubas.

[iiipopes]

So, after all the above, how does it play?

[GeoffC_UK]

So, after all the above, how does it play?

https://youtu.be/Ova9W0WZ1LQ
Short clip of me blowing the 3400-FA5s

[GeoffC_UK]

Thanks Geoff,
Looking at you YouTube I guess you played for Sunlife Band? I played in BTM around the same time (1987 to 1994) so we probably have a good few friends in common!......on Patrick Harrild's tubas.

Pete

That's a lot to digest.
From next week I'll have a lot more time on my hands, so I'll begin to really delve in.
But, I will try what you suggest.

I visited Mark C in south Wales last October between lockdowns.
Nice guy and hugely knowledgeable.
He kindly setup a few rotary Eb's to trial.

Yes, indeed, I blew with SLB for over 10 years.
Joined them in 1984.
At that time half the band came across the Severn to rehearsals.
Such names as Howard Thomas, Mike Tilly, Lawrence Savage, Johnny Evans, Neil Watson, Chris Thomas.... and the list of Welsh could go on.
All great chaps and first class bandsmen, sadly, some having left us for the celestial band in the sky.

Whenever I listened to BTM they always seemed to have a huge sound.
Gave it what for.
Memory is a bit fuzzy, but my last job with SLB was the RAH 1994.
Think you played just before us, because we needed to borrow your bass trombone, Gareth Key?
https://youtu.be/Z59cY4r8Lr4 - This is the live contest performance from the Albert Hall.

Geoff

[PeteDenton]

Thanks Geoff,

Yes Mark is great - he graduated from the (now Royal) Welsh College of Music and Drama a couple of years before me so I've known him since my student days. You may well have had a try on the Miraphone 383 Starlight I bought from Mark - I only took delivery in December.

Chris Thomas is definitely a long standing mutual friend - of course playing principal trombone at Cory now. If it's the same Johnny Evans (cornet/sop) then I've known him for years too!

Thanks for the comment about the huge sound - possibly partly due to me playing on an old Miraphone 190 BBb Kaiser that I had bought from Jim Gourlay when he conducted us - but also yeah we all knew how to fill our instruments! I remember well our 5th placed Nationals performance on Energy in 1991 - with John Wallace putting 'Rolls Royce bass sound' in his adjudicator remarks! I don't have a video of our Energy performance but you can see me on the 190 BBb in this Devil and the Deep Blue Sea performance from 1993: https://youtu.be/9OMacF_HDN8

I've not heard Theme and Co-operation since we played it in 1994. You're right our bass trom then was Gareth (Andrew Williams who is now also at Cory was on a break from banding at the time).

Cheers

Pete

[GeoffC_UK]

Pete
I played two Norwegians with Mark.
No, Jonny Evans the horn player.
Gareth had depped with SLB before. In fact, the whole of the Cory Band's trombones recorded Energy with us for Radio 3.
Gareth later joined SLB and I sat next to him for a year or so.
Geoff

[iiipopes]

So, after all the above, how does it play?

https://youtu.be/Ova9W0WZ1LQ
Short clip of me blowing the 3400-FA5s

Sounds good. Thanks.

[tubeast]

Have You tried to contact the retailer and/or manufacturer about Your concerns ?
- Information may be available upon request or on their website
- They MAY have figured that You won´t need such information based on communications preceeding purchase wanting not to insult You
(The equivalent to offering Your seat on the metro to a not-so-much older person)
- They may simply have forgotten to include info and items and might be eager to correct their blooper

[GeoffC_UK]

Have You tried to contact the retailer .... blooper

You are quite right to ask this sensible question.
Not in all aspects, in answer.
Could be different countries, different languages, different consumer laws, et al.

People on this chat site are good people and have helped where they can to fill-in the gaps that I identified.
Enjoyed the discussion.

But the thread began as "...what would I expect if I spent that much money on something other than a tuba?"

So, my thread was more an academic question or a challenge: the result of which is, we don't seem to expect much.

If I were a tuba maker I'd address these. They seem easy wins to me. They would likely engender the client's good will towards my business.
But that's just my opinion.

Still very happy with my new horn.