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I have a BBb tuba but I'm thinking of changing to CC because I'm an old trumpet player who hasn't completely learned the different fingerings for BBb. I was wondering if there would be a problem playing with other tubas in, say, a community band if they played in BBb, since the intonation tendencies would be completely different, I would guess. Or would everybody have to lip or pull slides or adjust fingerings to play in tune with everybody else in the group?

Look here, please:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70447&p=575748#p575748

Ulli

A person who plays out of tune will play that way on any horn they have, regardless of key. Yes, there are different tuning tendencies between different keyed tubas, but I've found that a good section plays in tune regardless of how many keys are present. I've personally played in a band where there were two BBbs, a CC, and myself on F. It was great! I loved the color that we produced as a section. That's just my 2 cents.

A few years ago in the community band sponsored by the regional university, a young sprout declared that his Kalison was the best in tune tuba ever and that it was better than the Besson New Standard 3-valve comp I had at the time. So I challenged him from concert low BBb below the staff up an octave, a semitone at a time, for intonation. We were pitch-for-pitch for a few notes, then we hit a note that heterodyned. He proudly blurted, "I told you so." I said get the tuner, that he was the one who was off. We got the tuner. Yes, he was off. Not by much, but enough to win the bet that my beat up old tuba played in tune better than his shiny new tuba.

It's not the key of the instrument. It's the player. Yes, there may be some intonation characteristics, for example, fifth partial pitches are a step different so you will have to watch the second space open C tuning note on a CC tuba compared to that C being a flat fifth partial of many BBb tubas, and so forth. So yes, there can be some intonation tendencies that have to be addressed in a mixed section. But as Tyler posted, so long as everyone uses their ears to blend properly, a mixed section can be very rich, indeed.

Thanks so much for your insights and for the link to the prior thread which I couldn't think of key words for (doh!). It was also very helpful. Interesting that the variety of tubas produces a rich, warm sound...makes sense, but I didn't think of it. Now I just have to sell two BBbs and find a CC! I guess it will be interesting setting up the 4th and 5th valve combinations...

To answer your initial question, no, there would be no problem. If no one knew the different keys of the tubas that were being played in the group, they would not know (does that make sense?). Years ago I acquired a really nice BBb Kroner tuba. I was asked to sit in with a concert band for a gig and the players all loved my horn (5 of them, they mostly played CC). At some point I mentioned that it was a BBb and they all about pooped their pants. All of the sudden it went from a “great horn” to “I don’t know? A BBb. How could you go back to BBb?” I just laughed and said “when you thought it was a CC it was.... ah, never mind”. I sold it to buy a CC and really regret letting it go. Now, with all of that said, I did experience an interesting experience once in a tuba quartet. The quartet I’ve played in for years (34 and counting) had a CC on 4th, Eb on 3rd, F on 2nd and a bass bone on 1st part. Over time, I sold the F and bought a Willson 3400 Eb. So then we had CC, Eb, Eb then bass bone. Then the other Eb guy got a really nice big BBb. So we went from BBb, CC, Eb and Bass bone (the CC guy would double on F at which point I would take over on 3rd and he would play the 2nd part). Then one day, two of us couldn’t make a gig. We got two doctoral students from UM (Michigan) studio and played a concert with two Bb euphs, one Eb and BBb on the bottom. The euph players commented on how the sound of the ensemble blended so beautifully. The were used to playing in a quartet with a CC and an F and 2 euphs. They said it always felt like their “sounds” were always “at odds”. Sort of fighting one another. They (and the BBb guy and me) felt that the quality of sound with BBb, Eb, Bb and Bb blended quite well. It was an interesting and eye opening experience for us. Long story from an old guy for what it’s worth.

Some years ago I played in a british style brass band. For some time we had a BBb and CC for the lower part and Eb and F for the higher. It
sounded very good!

royjohn wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 2:01 pm I have a BBb tuba but I'm thinking of changing to CC because I'm an old trumpet player who hasn't completely learned the different fingerings for BBb.

I don't know if I understand your post. I don't see how switching to CC will allow you to avoid learning new fingerings.

Hup

Well, I understand that the tuba 4 or 5 valve system means that there are lots of new fingerings to learn for certain notes, but I assume that the CC tuba fingerings you would use on a 3 valver are the same as those you would use on a trumpet for the notes notated the same. C would be open, E would be open or 1&2, etc. Just not exactly one tone different as on BBb. I hope I'm making sense, and I hope I'm right. Otherwise no need to change tubas.

royjohn wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 8:45 am Well, I understand that the tuba 4 or 5 valve system means that there are lots of new fingerings to learn for certain notes, but I assume that the CC tuba fingerings you would use on a 3 valver are the same as those you would use on a trumpet for the notes notated the same. C would be open, E would be open or 1&2, etc. Just not exactly one tone different as on BBb. I hope I'm making sense, and I hope I'm right. Otherwise no need to change tubas.

This is true, transposing to bass cleff...

As with trumpets, the mouthpiece used can have as much or more impact on playing characteristics as the key.
So why worry more about they key tuba than making a good sound?

I'm not following you...I can read bass clef from my piano studies and choral music...it's just seeing the C and having to finger it 1-3 that gets me.

royjohn wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am I'm not following you...I can read bass clef from my piano studies and choral music...it's just seeing the C and having to finger it 1-3 that gets me.

Yes, if you are used to reading concert pitch notation bass clef in other contexts, I can see how a CC tuba might be a little easier than a BBb tuba for the reason stated. I play keys and bass and guitar as well as low brass, so I have to read everything, including the octave transposed charts for bass guitar/double bass, especially in a jazz band. Since as a freshman in high school I learned BBb tuba fingerings marching with a souzy, I am fine with the BBb fingerings or the CC fingerings. But I see your point.

royjohn wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am I'm not following you...I can read bass clef from my piano studies and choral music...it's just seeing the C and having to finger it 1-3 that gets me.

Dont overthink it, your brain is much smarter at adapting, than you think. Actually, don't think at all. Thinking is a very slow process. Just practice easy music, first on C as you are used to, then switch to Bb tuba, and play exactly the same melody, obviously with different fingerings.

Use really easy music, switch forth and back from C to Bb, and keep going like that for two weeks. Switch often.

After that, your smart brain did connect the dots for you, without thinking, and you will be able to play any melody on C or Bb at wish.

marccromme wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:52 pm

royjohn wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am I'm not following you...I can read bass clef from my piano studies and choral music...it's just seeing the C and having to finger it 1-3 that gets me.

Dont overthink it, your brain is much smarter at adapting, than you think. Actually, don't think at all. Thinking is a very slow process. Just practice easy music, first on C as you are used to, then switch to Bb tuba, and play exactly the same melody, obviously with different fingerings.

Use really easy music, switch forth and back from C to Bb, and keep going like that for two weeks. Switch often.

After that, your smart brain did connect the dots for you, without thinking, and you will be able to play any melody on C or Bb at wish.

That doesn't work after playing BBb for 30+ years to try to switch to CC, once you are hard wired it's almost impossible to do that. I'd only use your suggestion for pliable young high school brains.

groth wrote:

That doesn't work after playing BBb for 30+ years to try to switch to CC, once you are hard wired it's almost impossible to do that. I'd only use your suggestion for pliable young high school brains.

Hi groth,

Would I be reading too much into your statement if I said that you seem to be implying that it might be easier on this 73 y/o brain to switch to CC than to 'take two weeks' to learn the BBb fingerings?

royjohn

royjohn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:14 pm groth wrote:

That doesn't work after playing BBb for 30+ years to try to switch to CC, once you are hard wired it's almost impossible to do that. I'd only use your suggestion for pliable young high school brains.

Hi groth,

Would I be reading too much into your statement if I said that you seem to be implying that it might be easier on this 73 y/o brain to switch to CC than to 'take two weeks' to learn the BBb fingerings?

royjohn

Hi Roy, I don't know if you are coming from the BBb already looking to move into CC horn or maybe a trumpet player as you hinted looking to start either tuba? If trumpet player, going to CC might be easier if you're already wired to play C's open. That whole step difference is a very tough mind bender when you have been hard wired a certain way for so long to over come. I recently tried fingering all my old community band repertoire with C fingerings and (a common issue with hard wired BBb players and vice versa) once you start playing running 8th notes or melodic passages your brain forces your fingers back to the key you've known through no fault of your own. It's an unconscious trait and it's frustrating. There's a lot of C tubas I'd LOVE to own but can't. I know the notes, but cannot stop at each one and "think" about it or risk getting canned from the band.

groth wrote:

[you are a]... trumpet player as you hinted looking to start either tuba? If trumpet player, going to CC might be easier if you're already wired to play C's open.

Yes, that's right...a converted trumpet player and not a professional musician. I got a BBb tuba to try out several years ago and have exchanged horns several times, but always stayed with BBb and practiced a little here and there but never played tuba in an organized band. I have the hang of the embouchure now, but not necessarily reading music for the tuba.

I think you may be onto something with the "hard wired" idea and there's also that we learn a little less easily at my age. This may be neither here nor there, but I recently took some cognitive tests as part of my DNA testing. I seem to be holding my own with the average "23 and me" user, but I'm not in the top 2% like I used to be in most IQ tests, so I am guessing I'm about average compared to a cohort that includes people who are anywhere from 20-80. I also started doing some chess problems in preparation for starting to play again and on the first day I felt like my brain had sawdust in the gears. I'm just not quite as quick as I used to be. When I was younger, I learned to play piano, but I never was fast at it, so maybe it is the better part of valor to just take the easy path toward learning as many of the tuba fingerings as I can. Physical coordination is just not my strong suit.

I don't doubt that after several weeks or months I could get the hang of the BBb fingerings, but I remember starting to read clefs and I was constantly reading a G for a B or an A for a C, so I would imagine it would be really easy to lose your way in faster pieces without time too think and consciously convert. It's really not a problem to sell my used BBb tuba and get a Mack 410 or similar CC tuba similar to a Miraclone. Besides, it's always fun to look for a new-to-me horn, right?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
-royjohn

royjohn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 6:22 pm groth wrote:

[you are a]... trumpet player as you hinted looking to start either tuba? If trumpet player, going to CC might be easier if you're already wired to play C's open.

Yes, that's right...a converted trumpet player and not a professional musician. I got a BBb tuba to try out several years ago and have exchanged horns several times, but always stayed with BBb and practiced a little here and there but never played tuba in an organized band. I have the hang of the embouchure now, but not necessarily reading music for the tuba.

I think you may be onto something with the "hard wired" idea and there's also that we learn a little less easily at my age. This may be neither here nor there, but I recently took some cognitive tests as part of my DNA testing. I seem to be holding my own with the average "23 and me" user, but I'm not in the top 2% like I used to be in most IQ tests, so I am guessing I'm about average compared to a cohort that includes people who are anywhere from 20-80. I also started doing some chess problems in preparation for starting to play again and on the first day I felt like my brain had sawdust in the gears. I'm just not quite as quick as I used to be. When I was younger, I learned to play piano, but I never was fast at it, so maybe it is the better part of valor to just take the easy path toward learning as many of the tuba fingerings as I can. Physical coordination is just not my strong suit.

I don't doubt that after several weeks or months I could get the hang of the BBb fingerings, but I remember starting to read clefs and I was constantly reading a G for a B or an A for a C, so I would imagine it would be really easy to lose your way in faster pieces without time too think and consciously convert. It's really not a problem to sell my used BBb tuba and get a Mack 410 or similar CC tuba similar to a Miraclone. Besides, it's always fun to look for a new-to-me horn, right?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
-royjohn

What's even more odd, is if I pick up a trumpet and pretend to play "BBb tuba fingerings" while reading bass clef tuba part music they match up with the corresponding pitch but I know I am likely playing a different pitch if you put a treble clef part in front of me. Not a theory wizard, but can someone explain that?

When you're good, everything is easy and everything is possible.
Realistically you will have casual players, players don't practice due to workload/family/competing hobbies, switch-hitters from other instruments, and some really outstanding players. So you will want to the tools to make it easy as possible. Not only for tuning, but matching attack/response time
Most areas the consensus is European 4/4 rotary. Some regions might have stuck to American style or be ride-or-die-Yamaha. Easiest road is to stick with what is popular.

If you have your strongest player on F, it gives a clear sound the other players can easily follow and reinforce the low end.