F or Eb - and why?

The bulk of the musical talk
Post Reply
rtucker5612
lurker
lurker
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:20 pm

F or Eb - and why?

Post by rtucker5612 »

I searched the forum and didn’t really find much on this topic. I’d like to hear opinions/reasoning.
GeoffC_UK
bugler
bugler
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:45 am
Location: Goob

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by GeoffC_UK »

In the UK it is Eb over F.
Why?
Answer: Popularity, as it is ever-present in many musical groups, especially (lots and lots of) brass bands, so manufacturers made lots more of these tubas.
This is a very simplistic answer, but it’ll do.
Could have gone into historic developments of the tuba in Germany, France, and England, plus other threads, but it would get messy.
User avatar
tylerferris1213
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: NW Ohio

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by tylerferris1213 »

Why not both? They both offer unique sounds, depending on what you get.
Tyler Ferris
Wessex British F
York Monster Eb
Getzen CB-50 CC
Cerveny CBB-601 BBb
"Yamayork" Frankentuba Contrabass FF
brendanige
bugler
bugler
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:45 pm

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by brendanige »

I play F, because it's general orchestral tradition in America, no more, no less.

I have been enjoying playing the Wessex compensating F, kinda sounds like a small Eb at times, pretty easy intonation. I like the sound of Eb tubas, but do not want to learn Eb fingerings (lazy).

I do however feel with large piston F's you can get a more Eb tuba or even CC tuba sound. I do not prefer these. Personally, I find them out of tune and fluffy, though there are numerous players who can get them in tune and good sounding. I prefer the old B and S rotary horns... Very in tune, sounds like (what I think) F tuba should sound like.

All this being said, Eb tubas with rotors sound more like what I think f tubas should sound like. So perhaps it's not really key, but size, shape and valve system implemented of tuba.
BBruce107
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:24 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by BBruce107 »

I’m with Brendan on this one, however I feel that some of the rotary F tubas are a bit of a bear to play. That being said, you can really make a beautiful sound on rotary F tuba. For me, I really love that sound but am not fond of the curve of learning rotary F. I have toyed with the idea of piston F tuba to help with the ease of playability but I’d miss the velvety German rotary sound. At the end of the day it is personal preference.
Brandon Bruce
Principal Tuba Gaylord Symphony Orchestra
Principal Tuba Alpena Symphony Orchestra
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8556
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by iiipopes »

The F tuba with Berliner-pumpen valves was the original Weiprecht-Moritz tuba in the 1830's for military bands to replace the serpent and ophicleide. The ophicleide is the reason these early tubas were narrow and tall, with valves for each hand, as that is what bass instrument players were used to at the time. The F tuba became a standard for orchestras thereafter, and still is a standard even with the use (oversimplified) of the CC tuba for contrabass in American orchestras and BBb for the contrabass in German orchestras. Shortly thereafter the rotary valve was developed by Cerveny and eventually applied to all tubas of all pitches.

The Eb tuba was the bass instrument of the original series of saxhorns designed by Adolph Sax in the mid-1800's, especially with the invention and use of the Perinet valve. It became popular in the UK. The same reasoning behind having a family of Bb and Eb horns all using the same fingerings and playing transposed treble clef so any person could fill in a gap to play any horn necessary in a band, and to be able to have group instruction, was one of the foundations of the British brass band movement. The Eb tuba is still a standard instrument in some UK orchestras, the best known exponent being John Fletcher. And due to size and weight, the Eb is the regulation tuba in UK military bands - no BBb tubas.

Mixed wind concert bands also had the Eb tuba first, before BBb tubas were developed. In the USA even before the Civil War, Eb was the primary bass instrument until the development of the BBb tuba. Later the influence of Sousa prevailed to have a concert band tuba section play all BBb instruments to the exclusion of Eb instruments. But I have seen a resurgence in concert bands of Eb instruments. Older parts written in octaves were understood to primarily be for BBb tubas playing the lower notes, and only playing the upper octaves if there were only Eb instruments. But some newer compositions and arrangements appear to be requiring both instruments, as the written parts are not simply in octaves, and not necessarily in the same beat in the bar.

And there you have almost 200 years of tuba history grossly oversimplified in three paragraphs.
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
"Real" Conn 36K.
eupho
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Endicott,NY

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by eupho »

I am a euphonium specialist, retired conductor and music educator. Having played tubas in all keys in various settings I prefer Eb over F. Of course, the main reason is reading since bass clef on Eb tuba reads like treble on euphonium. Ergonomics of Eb 3+1 and compensating euphonium match up. F and Eb tubas each have their oddities and that is a topic in itself. That's my 2 cents.
2052sg Euphonium-
2110L BBb tuba
3/4 Conn Eb tuba
Southern Tier Concert Band(euph)]
Vestal(NY) Community Band(tuba)
Maine(NY) Community Band(conductor)
humBell
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: North Eastern U.S.

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by humBell »

Thanks iiipopes for the summary!

I don't think i'd ever delved that far into tuba history before, so i'm grateful.

As for the initial question, pick one and go. In my experience cheap craigslists Ebs are more common, so i'd go that way, and figure that the experience playing a 3 valve beater would set me up to pick a better one for more money. And i don't know for sure, but i expect high end instruments in both are adequate to the task of making music, and will come with their own idiosyncrasies.

A separate question that is worth asking: how long does it take to learn new fingerings? Or to comfortably switch between them?
Thanks for playing!
Michael Grant
bugler
bugler
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Michael Grant »

Basically, the one is better than the other. That’s the main reason why.
Michael Grant
Wessex HB24 BBb Helicon
King 2341
eupho
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Endicott,NY

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by eupho »

I also concur with the versatility of Eb. Both EB and F can sound fantastically with the right instrument in the right hands
2052sg Euphonium-
2110L BBb tuba
3/4 Conn Eb tuba
Southern Tier Concert Band(euph)]
Vestal(NY) Community Band(tuba)
Maine(NY) Community Band(conductor)
eupho
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Endicott,NY

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by eupho »

I also concur with the versatility of Eb. Both EB and F can sound fantastically with the right instrument in the right hands
2052sg Euphonium-
2110L BBb tuba
3/4 Conn Eb tuba
Southern Tier Concert Band(euph)]
Vestal(NY) Community Band(tuba)
Maine(NY) Community Band(conductor)
User avatar
kingrob76
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: Reston, VA

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by kingrob76 »

This is like asking what's the best pizza.

While slightly different tools, both F and Eb tubas have enough variety in the number of designs out there to overlap what can be done pretty effectively. It's personal preference. I've owned both and there are ups and downs as with any other instrument. I've never bought into the "common finger patterns" argument for BBb/Eb vs CC/F, fingerings are fingerings. The key thing for me is finding a particular instrument you "shake hands" with, regardless of the key in which it's pitched.
Rob. Just Rob.
lornix
lurker
lurker
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:40 pm

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by lornix »

Well - I am partial to F because I think the March fits better at the front - The Song of the Blacksmith is a really amusing use of syncopation to mess with heads - and the Fantasia on the Dargason gives a nice chance for tubas to shine at the end.

Wait - the question was not about comapring the Holst Suites? Whoops - my bad.
User avatar
Steginkt
bugler
bugler
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:49 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Steginkt »

I would say that the differences between all Eb tubas and all F tubas are greater than the differences between the two individually. Bore, bell size, compensation, and valve types are going to matter much more than the key. We're at the point now where the range issues on either aren't really present any more for either, although I will say that if you're trying to play something on Eb that was written for F or Cc, tuning or fingerings could be an issue. The Bozza sonatine is murder, the Vaughan Williams is tricky, the John Williams requires a lot of creativity in the second movement and third movement coda, and a lot of the Szentpali literature takes much longer to work up.
Yamaha Xeno YSL-8820
Willson 3400 Eb
Lyon and Healy Sousaphone
5/4 Rudolf Meinl CC
Wessex trumpet
tubeast
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:59 pm
Location: Buers, Austria

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by tubeast »

To begin, I´m not too happy with the fact that all these instruments are named "tuba".
A differentiation by name might be able to clear up quite a lot.

I guess nobody in their right mind would look at cornet, flugelhorn and trumpet and discuss "which one is better" or "Why choose trumpet over cornet".
The same goes for the three variants of valved Bb tenor instruments currently used in British Brass Band.

The differences between MOST F and MOST Eb tuba models seem to be greater regarding sound concept than they are regarding fingerings.
Hans
Melton 46 S
1903 or earlier GLIER Helicon, customized Hermuth MP
2009 WILLSON 6400 RZ5, customized GEWA 52 + Wessex "Chief"
MW HoJo 2011 FA, Wessex "Chief"
Jaycet62
lurker
lurker
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Jaycet62 »

I am trying to learn an old 3 valve e flat tuba. I understand that this tuba is not a transposing instrument. I am not a trained musician and need help understanding why it is described as being in the “family of Bb and Eb horns all using the same fingerings and playing transposed treble clef so any person could fill in a gap to play any horn necessary …..” specifically I don’t get the “ same fingerings” concept since I am learning different fingering from my bb flat tuba.Or the idea of “transposed treble clef “ in this context. I will greatly appreciate your help in dumbing this down for me. Thanks in advance. J
User avatar
Snake Charmer
bugler
bugler
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:34 am
Location: Schifferstadt, Germany

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Snake Charmer »

The transposed treble-clef system is not unknown to the tuba world. The British brass bands use it, and in some regions in Europe it is at least traditionally used. But if one band gets a new tuba player with a wrong-keyed horn this will not work too well.
The Eb tuba is the tradionally used higher tuba in old military music, where all other instruments were in Bb or Eb and the played keys mostly had four or more flats. For that reason they had often flutes and piccolos in Db...
The F tuba took over the symphonic orchestra part from the ophicleide and holds the place until today.
User avatar
Tubajug
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:23 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Tubajug »

Eb, because that's what I own already! :)
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
Tubatooter
bugler
bugler
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:03 pm

Re: F or Eb - and why?

Post by Tubatooter »

Jaycet62 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:33 am I am trying to learn an old 3 valve e flat tuba. I understand that this tuba is not a transposing instrument. I am not a trained musician and need help understanding why it is described as being in the “family of Bb and Eb horns all using the same fingerings and playing transposed treble clef so any person could fill in a gap to play any horn necessary …..” specifically I don’t get the “ same fingerings” concept since I am learning different fingering from my bb flat tuba.Or the idea of “transposed treble clef “ in this context. I will greatly appreciate your help in dumbing this down for me. Thanks in advance. J
To answer again....in British brass bands, all the instruments are transposing except for the bass trombone, which reads bass clef at concert pitch. That means, they all read treble clef and all use the same fingerings for the same dot on the page; because they are transposing, a different concert pitch will come out based on which one you're playing. If you are in the US and reading bass clef, none of the tubas are transposing and you will have to learn a set of fingerings for each one.
Post Reply