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I recently purchased a custom built Buescher tuba from Lee Stofer. The tuba is a frankenhorn built from a Bb Buescher 3 valve front action body cut to CC, a 4 valve Buescher sousaphone, and a hirsbrunner rotor. I’ve spent the last couple of days trying to date the manufacture of the sousaphone valve section and the main body. I’ve talked with the guy at Buescher loyalist and he guessed that the main body was likely 20s or early 30s. The sousaphone section has a serial number of #6017, but going from the serial lists online that would date it near 1906-7 which doesn’t seem right. So my main question here is were there any sousaphone made in 1906-7 that had 4 valves.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-Ethan

Why does the date for the valves not "seem" right to you? The guy at the Buescher Loyalist probably knows a great deal about Buescher serial numbers.

Early sousaphones were made with 4 valves.
This is a King, which was the quickest I could find:

The guy at buescher loyalist said he knows a lot more about trumpets, cornets, and flugelhorns. Not much about the sousaphones or tubas. But he did estimate the engraving on the main body as late 20s or early 30s before the art deco style hit instruments. I’ll contact Lee Stofer tomorrow morning and try to see if he has the serial number for the main body and talk about the sousaphone valve sections serial number. I think I remember Lee saying he didn’t like to work on any tuba pre 1925, that why the date didn’t seem right to me.

After talking with Lee today I found that the serial number is indeed right. He said that the only part he hates to work on before the 1920s is the main body section. Because of having instruments that are not in 440, which was very common before the 1920s.

All PEOPLE (of all flavours) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

TubaBeage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:51 am All PEOPLE (of all flavours) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Every user here knows this. Even before the "Beer Hall Putsch" staged here last August we knew this. All of us. No one has ever said otherwise.

With that in mind, your post has nothing at all to do with the general topic of this forum or the specific topic at hand. It is a massive non sequitur being imposed upon this thread, but I will not report it as such. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion at hand, and HAVE A GREAT DAY!

In the spirt of your post I would like to add that I once owned a car without air conditioning. In the summers, when I drove it I got very hot. I hope this comment is taken with my intended spirit of inclusiveness. "All PEOPLE (of all flavors)" should have AC in their car.

And now, back to the OP's original topic…

Since you seem to be worried about the valves I would like to toss out a bunch of unsolicited information about having them rebuilt, as it seems that this might be the direction you were thinking of taking them. (If I am incorrect, please disregard all that follows. I am also sharing this info for future users searching the now-butchered archives for this specific information.)

The problem with really old valves is that they tend to leak badly, which can cause some really weird and inconsistent pitch issues. (By inconsistent I mean that they change depending on temperature and the amount and viscosity of oil (or spit, or water condensate) between the piston and casing. The wider the gap between those the more viscus the oil has to be, which slows down the action.

A valve job that is actually worth the money corrects both the casing and piston shapes and hones them together so they are like new. This can only be done by fully removing the slide tubing from the casing knuckles, which takes just about a full disassembly of the valve section. If it is silver plated the plating can be badly damaged or even ruined if the horn is fairly recent, since silver plate is only about 4 microns in thickness. (Modern silver plate usually does not stand up to being torched in the manner needed to do this work.) If the horn is old (pre-1950 or so) the silver is often much thicker, so this is not such an issue.

Because Dave Secrist retired from Anderson's there is no large, fast, and decently priced place to get this work done. Now you have to take such work to small shops where the work is just as good, but it takes them more time to get to your order and it usually takes them more time to do the work. Since they do not do this work as their main gig it costs a lot more by the hour (or even when billed out as piecework).

Therefore rescuing a nice, old tuba correctly by first having the valves rebuilt is not currently worth it unless the horn is a known good player. (You used to be able to take a chance on a horn and have this done. If it did not work out you could take it back apart and save the valve set for something else. Now it is so expensive that I only do this for valve sets that are of a known excellent port design — some old valve sets are not worth the expense to bring back as they were not all tht good to begin with. Just being honest, here: some valves are not designed all that well.)

A cheaper alternative might be to purchase a NEW valve set that is of the configuration you want or need, with all the crooks needed to line up the slides with the ports correctly (very important) and a bunch of slide tubing (inner/outer sets) and build your own valve section (or give all that to a builder and pay them to do it for you, installing it all to your tuba when completed). You can also purchase a complete valve section pre-built from some builders. I know that Walter Nirschl has, in the past, sold complete Eb and CC tuba valve sections because I have seen them, personally. I have also seen fully built-to-order sections from Hirsbrunner, but I guess we can cross them of the list, of course. My point is that you can get a brand new valve section - valves and slides - for not much more than the current price to properly rebuild an old valve section.

I am not pushing you to do this, as I do not know how much value you attach to this instrument. I am only giving you information to consider as you work through what it is you want to do with this tuba. FWIW, I think these prices will come down some over time, as one of the shops that are taking up the slack decides to do this as a mainline service and they can lower hourly or piecework rates through bulk. But it is a huge commitment to tool up to do this work at a high state, quickly and economically. Most will continue to do it because they can, but not because they want to do it, until someone decides they enjoy the work and want to do it all the time as their main service.

I know, that does not help you right now. Sorry. I am just the messenger. I miss Dave Secrist, too.

Good luck. Please post photos of your horn before and after, if you decide to have major surgery done to it. Again, I apologize if I missed the mark by posting this information. I'm just trying to help.

Sorry

TubaBeage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:11 amSorry

We all are here for this ——>

Easy Mac wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:54 am
The problem with really old valves is that they tend to leak badly, which can cause some really weird and inconsistent pitch issues. (By inconsistent I mean that they change depending on temperature and the amount and viscosity of oil (or spit, or water condensate) between the piston and casing. The wider the gap between those the more viscus the oil has to be, which slows down the action.

I’ve tossed around the idea of maybe swapping out for MAW valves at some point. I haven’t noticed any pitch issues yet, but then again I’ve only got to play it about a day before going on vacation. Do you think if I did have problems a valve set change could fix that?

No, by "valve set" I mean the pistons AND the casings. The whole set. Everything. Both surfaces are badly worn and need to be built up oversized and then honed to fit each other perfectly. The casings have to be removed from the tuba - a complete disassembly using a torch.

Also, Martin will not make you a set of his pistons for any random valve set. He will alter what you have, but that is like $1,200 or more, and if they already leak that is a complete waste of money. And MAW valves are not a panacea. They fix specific issues for specific valve sets, like the "Big Valve" valve set used by Melton, B&S, etc. I have an old York set that are so well designed and made that the MAW valve idea is not necessary because there is NO distortion in any of the ports. (They suffer, rather, from a very long stroke to make this possible.)

A valve set is rebuilt to correct wear in the casing walls as much as in the pistons. Remember that the material the casings are made from is SOFTER than the material used for the pistons. If you see a lot of wear on the pistons then the casings are probably much more worn out. (And exception: in the really old days pistons were (I think, I may be wrong, here) copper plated and this wears down very badly but might not wear the casings all that much.)

MAW valves are designed to alter the horns performance/response and not for filling the gaps between worn out pistons and casings. (Also, Mr. Wilk is not one to chat on the phone, and he dislikes email. He does not post online, either. If you call him, write down what you want to ask and stick to your script or he might suddenly get busy and have to go. Only call hi if you think you want to spend the money. Tell him *exactly* what your valves are from and the age. I am sure he will tell you to go to Dan Oberloh or the like if he does not rebuild valves himself. (I don't know. I've only spoken to the man twice. Both times I felt like I was in the 4th grade sitting before the Principal, hahaha.)

Valve rebuilding is costly, wherever you go. Not everyone who offers the service is all that good at the work. Lots of shops will offer the service and charge you out the wazoo, but actually only disassemble and reassemble the horn, shipping the valves off to a shop that specializes in valve refitting. The go-to man used to be Dave Secrist at Anderson's. Now it is about a dozen guys all over the place, some of whom are outstanding, but pricey and slow, some of whom are not that great but still pricey and slow. You have to research a lot to find someone good that you can afford. Trumpet forums are good places to hunt for contact info for the good guys, and not all are set up to do large valves like on a tuba.

It is difficult, nowadays, I am sorry to say. This is why I suggested purchasing a new or a very good used complete valve section. If it is for a longer horn then cut the slide to the correct length (or have them cut) and if the horn is too short have the slides re-tubed (a lot more expensive than cutting). It is always much easier to start with a good BBb section and shorten slides to the key of your horn (assuming your horn is not already in BBb, that is).

Good luck, whatever you end up doing.

Is this something you can only hear or something you can take the valve cap off and see space in between?

It varies by the amount of wear. I would have someone who knows something about valves check them out for you to see whether the horn is leaking anywhere, especially the valves.

Good luck. I'm outa here.

Easy Mac wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 am Now it is about a dozen guys all over the place, some of whom are outstanding, but pricey and slow, some of whom are not that great but still pricey and slow.

Just curious if you have first hand experience with any of the "dozen guys" having tuba or euphonium valves refit/rebuilt? Or are you just reporting second-hand information? You can PM me if you prefer. I'd be glad to hear more from your point of view.


Daniel "one of the dozen guys " Oberloh
Repair Tech to the stars, Floyd and Emma Starr of Milton, Washington.

You are at the top of the list of people to go to for this work. Your posts online display absolutely top-notch work. I know you have a waiting list, too. I also know you charge a lot, which is completely fair since your work is of such a fine level. Quality work costs.

There are a number of trumpet guys out there right now who are doing this, too, and based on my interactions with them (or some of their customers who are friends of mine), most of them seem only interested in trumpet work, which makes complete sense to me. But I also know of three or four valve sets completed by some of that "dozen or so" who charged a lot of money for what I consider to be incomplete work, at best, and mediocre work at worst. Not everyone who is offering this service is good at this service. It seems like some of them lack all the needed equipment that your shop has in abundance, so they cannot really compete with you in that regard. And then, because they lack some of the needed equipment they lack the skills needed to use that equipment at a high level, which means steps in the process you follow are skipped or done thorough means that could give a less-than-satisfactory finished product.

This is why I did not mention any names but implied that the non-genius valve rebuilders tend to be in the trumpet realm and that a small amount of research would allow them (as a tuba player) to locate you.

Using no names is safer on this website since the "Great Cancel Culture Purge of August 2020" if what you are saying is accurate and you do not want to start a flame war; I can only hint at people to contact because of that. Google really *is* the OP's friend in this case, as you are very easy to locate as a source for high-quality valve work. (I have heard that at one point you were doing some of the work for Anderson's in some capacity, and if that is the case that is a huge compliment to your skills. Your website is packed with impressive photos and writeups that clearly display your level of workmanship. Tony's Tuba is an article I have read many times; I love the photos.) There are about a dozen guys doing (or who were doing) this work that I know of, and at least half of them are sub-par, in my opinion, based on reports/photos/actually looking at completed valve sets before reinstallation. There are probably three really top-flight guys, and you are the only one I would recommend by name for anything tuba, much less a rescue valve rebuild project.