brass instrument pitch

[windshieldbug]

why?
how come that it's in Bb? Is there any particular reason, technical, musical, harmonical etc?

Actually, since pitch standards have changed so much over the 19th and 20th centuries, depending on where a "Bb" horn was, it could be anything from a modern B natural to a modern A, and everything in between...

As far as what one reads, ALL the instruments that read bass clef (trombone, baritone, euphonium, tuba) read concert pitch, so no transposition is involved. The instrument fundimental, therefore, could be any tone.

One cannot help but wonder if the key has more to do with the ease of playability of typical players or the keys of the alto instruments involved.

[Dan Schultz]

A couple member of our Dixie group got into a heated discussion this morning regarding the pitch of a trombone. One said it's a Bb instrument and another says it's a C instrument. The C beleiver seems to think since a trombone reads bass clef and bass clef is written in concert pitch (C)... then a trombone must be a C instrument. Another says since the fundamental pitch is Bb... then it's a Bb instrument. What's your explanation?

[Donn]

I don't think there's any serious question that it's a Bb trombone, whatever the player happens to be reading (think British parts are Bb?) Of course we know that, because our tubas are F/Eb/CC/BBb regardless.

I'd say this would be less confusing were it not for the woodwinds. Woodwind instruments do not have such a significant natural pitch. For example, ask a bassoon player. It's an F instrument, by closest analogy with other woodwind fingerings, but notation is in C and that's what they'll say - C. Which is reasonable, because there isn't much about it that has anything to do with F. Lowest note? Bb. If you sawed off a bassoon so that it only reached C, would it be in G? Nope, lowest note doesn't particularly matter. So woodwind players tend to think of it in terms of the notation. With the possible exception of bass sax players.

[Ace]

A Bb trombone is a Bb instrument because its fundamental is Bb. Its first position (equivalent to open on valved instruments) gives Bb, F, Bb, D, F, and so on up the partials. Its music is written at pitch; i.e., a written Bb is Bb on the instrument.

What gets me is the confusing way in which music is written for Bb trumpet or cornet. These instruments have a fundamental of Bb but that note is written a whole step higher; that is, Bb is written as C. Why not treat them the same way as trombones?

[Anterux]

From my point of view the trombone is a non transposing instrument. So is the tuba. So are recorders.

The trombone is in fact in Bb because of the well explanations above. However, the trombonist see's a C, plays a C and we hear a C. Therfore from a point of view of the composer or the copyist, a trombone is in C because it is a non transposing instrument.

In Portuguese Wind Bands tubas and Euphoniums ARE transposing instruments.


I dont have an explanation for the fact of the popularity of Bb instruments.

I can only guess that manufacters tryed some keys around C for sopranos and around F for altos and so on.

The Bb is probably a case of popularity?

Antero.

[craigpotter]

Because Bb rolls off the tongue better than A sharp

[Anterux]

I thought about the trombone thing again.

The Bb Trombone is in C. Because when it reads a C, it plays a C and we hear a C. Therefore the trombone is in the key of C.

Its foundamental being Bb does not have anything to do with this matter. Just the above.

The same goes to tubas and recorders. We say a BBb tuba or an F tuba, becaouse of the foundamental. But because the way we write to them they are all non transposing.

If the important thing for this matter was the foundamental, a Bb Clarinet would be in fact an D Clarinet! And a soprano saxophone would be a Ab saxophone.

No?

Antero "from the writers point of view" Avila

[TubaRay]

It seems to me that this discussion is attempting to discuss two topics at once. The first is the name of the instrument(i.e. Bb trombone, etc.). The second is how the music is written for the instrument(i.e. Bb trumpet). Once one gets past that, things get a little clearer.

Now the original poster, if I recall correctly, was asking why certain keys were chosen. I don't recall the history of it, but that should be available by research, just as Doc has stated.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Because we brass players are effected by which fundamental pitch our instruments are built on, and the resulting fingering schemes, naming an instrument by it's fundamental pitch is indeed valid, when we talk amonst ourselves.

The whole idea of transposition, is another issue all together. It makes sense that trumpets & horns are transposing instruments, since historically, they had to change crooks (*i.e.- the pitch of their horns) to fit in with the prevailing key center of a given piece of orchestral music.

Trombones never needed such a mechanical crutch, in order to play in different keys (they already had their mechanical crutch built into their instruments !), therefore, they were not confined to any particular key, and so, their parts were able to be written in concert pitch. (Hey, I'm making this stuff up, as I go along! )

When the valve was invented, all of the brasses were then capable of playing easily(?), in all keys, just as the trombones could. The tradition of trumpets & horns, as transposing intruments was already established, but since the tuba was new, I guess that they figured it might as well read in concert pitch! I also wonder if the fact that different nations favored tubas of different keys, made writing tuba parts in C, just a matter of practicality.

[Donn]

I don't think it's a coincidence that among concert pitch notations, most are bass instruments - not only brass, but for example bassoons. Probably because it's more useful to be able to substitute between similar registers (tuba plays opheiclide part) than similar types (clarinet player doubles on bass clarinet.)

Bass sax players usually figure this out eventually too. My woodwind experience has been all in the bass register, and when people names of notes to me ("could you play an A") I naturally think concert pitch and have to ponder a second to get to transposing pitch. Usual discussion ensues - "is it in C?" "No, it's a Bb saxophone, octave below the tenor." "So, when you play an A ..." "When I play A, you hear A - what else?" "So it's in C!?" "No - Bb saxophone."

[windshieldbug]

Bb instruments were first commonly propagated in the 19th century, when many of the "band" or "orchestra" players were common folk, who played instruments on the side. Even in orchestras, Bb cornet parts were common in published parts. My guess is that the Bb length was easier for such a performer to master, and C's were more common among pro's.

With the British band movement gaining steam, all the parts were often in treble clef, and a common transposition just made sense.

One might as well ask why is an Eb soprano cornet/trumpet in Eb? Why not F or G ? The same for the (American)altohorn (British tenorhorn), and EEb bass...

[Z-Tuba Dude]

("could you play an A") I naturally think concert pitch and have to ponder a second to get to transposing pitch. Usual discussion ensues - "is it in C?" "No, it's a Bb saxophone, octave below the tenor." "So, when you play an A ..." "When I play A, you hear A - what else?" "So it's in C!?" "No - Bb saxophone."

"Who's on first?"....."I don't know!"....."THIRD BASE!"

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Bb instruments were first commonly propagated in the 19th century, when many of the "band" or "orchestra" players were common folk, who played instruments on the side. Even in orchestras, Bb cornet parts were common in published parts. My guess is that the Bb length was easier for such a performer to master, and C's were more common among pro's.

I don't think that C trumpets, and tubas were really common, until this century (Oops! last century).

[windshieldbug]

I don't think that C trumpets, and tubas were really common, until this century (Oops! last century).

Actually, even in both the 19th and 20th centuries, cornet maunufacurers (for example) produced and sold "vocal" cornets, which could switch from Bb to C for the reading of piano and vocal sheet music. They also made short leadpipe slides which used only one side of the main slide and put a Bb instrument in C. More common were the A cornet and trumpet, for which published parts were transposed and printed.

You can see all of these at Vintage Cornets, for example.

[Lew]

Whether one key was easier to play vs. another had little to nothing to do with it. Other than sackbuts (trombone precursors) and similar instruments, all brass instruments were originally bugles, to the extent that they had no mechanism for changing from the fundamental harmonics. Early natural trumpets were made in the keys of C, D, Eb, G, and F, although pitch standards varied so widely that some D trumpets of the 18th century played in the equivalent of today's Eb, and there was similar variation of other keys.

The instrument used was determined typically by the setting in which it was to be used. For example, if one was playing with an organ, they chose the instrument with harmonics that would work for the piece to be played in the keys in which the organ music was written.

As near as I can tell, Bb instruments evolved to allow musicians to play lower than they could on C instruments. The reason for Bb was therefore to extend the range, not because it was easier to play. The evolution of brass instruments in general was long and gradual. Some of this is explained in Anthony Baines' book, "Brass Instruments: Their History and Development."

Why instruments of certain keys were selected isn't totally clear to me in reading this book, but it appears that the primary reasons for particular keys were to match other instruments with which they would be playing, to allow the musician to play all of the notes as written, and because some composers and performers preferred the sound of instruments in a particular key over that of others. This last reason appears to be why Bb and Eb bass instruments were used in England.

[Art Hovey]

Here's my guess: Trombones are in Bb because that's how long an adult arm is. They could be made in C, but the slide would come off the end when the player reached too far. At one time they were made in G, but the player had to use an extension handle, which was more trouble than it was worth. I figure that trumpets and tubas are commonly in Bb because they are an octave above/below the trombones.
Male singers tend to sing in ranges that are matched well by Bb instruments. Female singers often have ranges that are not so convenient for Bb instruments. For example, listen to Buck Clayton's solos on the Billie Holiday recordings. They are all flawless, but they just seem too high for the trumpet.

I find it amusing that C-melody saxophones went out of fashion years ago, but that CC tubas are now the height of fashion.

[windshieldbug]

One cannot talk about the fundimental pitches of instruments without also discussing pitch standards. The Bb pitch at the time of Sax (1814-1894) was at least B natural, and getting dangerously close to a what C is now. Modern pitch didn't standardize at A=440 until about 1920, so it hardly matters how long amodern trombone is. (Notes on Early 20th Century Pitch Standards), (pitch, temperament & timbre), for examples.

Even though personal experience may only have to do with modern pitch, as the actual pitches (A, Bb, B, C, EEb, BBb, CC) were changing, the transposition to Bb in treble clef remained. I don't know what the actual HZ of Sax's instruments were, but Sax's MODERN pitches were probably more like C/F (how we got F horns/F tubas? The 6 valve French tuba was near modern C). A sackbut in 'A' might have been as high as modern C (that is, if they didn't just pick A as the modern pitch that it's fundimental comes closest to)

[corbasse]

One cannot talk about the fundimental pitches of instruments without also discussing pitch standards. The Bb pitch at the time of Sax (1814-1894) was at least B natural, and getting dangerously close to a what C is now.

From the site you linked to: (Notes on Early 20th Century Pitch Standards)

The standard rose quite dramatically throughout the course of the century so that by the end of the century in some venues, pitch was as high as A=457 (modern Bb is A=466)

From the article (and personal experience with old instruments ) I gather that around 460 seems to be the absolute maximum they got to in the 19th century.
That's still noticably below a modern Bb: quite a bit lower than reaching C as you seem to suggest. (which is around 530 Hz )
Pitches of the A could be anywhere between 390 and 470 Hz in baroque times, with some excesses to 500 Hz with a few very early Spanish instruments, but they never got that high. 457 seems to be the highest pitch in the timeframe we're talking about.

I've never played one of Sax's original instruments, but I've played plenty of other 19th century instruments. The pitch of those were all still in the neighbourhood of the pitch we expect. This is especially easy to see with natural horn crooks because these are marked with the pitch they're supposed to produce.

Modern pitch didn't standardize at A=440 until about 1920, so it hardly matters how long amodern trombone is.
Even though personal experience may only have to do with modern pitch, as the actual pitches (A, Bb, B, C, EEb, BBb, CC) were changing, the transposition to Bb in treble clef remained. I don't know what the actual HZ of Sax's instruments were, but Sax's MODERN pitches were probably more like C/F (how we got F horns/F tubas? The 6 valve French tuba was near modern C). A sackbut in 'A' might have been as high as modern C (that is, if they didn't just pick A as the modern pitch that it's fundimental comes closest to)

Sax's instruments were definatively pitched around modern Bb/Eb. My theory is that this has to do with sound and playing quality of the instruments.
I've played a lot of early wind music, and most of those have clarinet part in A, Bb and C. (also Eb) I've noticed from the moaning of my colleagues that C clarinets are more difficult to play than Bb or A ones.
(Not surprisingly?) C clarinets disapear from the scene the moment the mechanics get developed enough to play fully chromatic on any clarinet. Strangely enough this is also the time that valved/keyed brasses are starting to play the melodic parts in the military orchestras. What's easier than to keep them in Bb as well
I'd like to try a C flugelhorn if I could find one. My prediction (based on nothing;) ) is that it will be not very good...

For the sackbut I like to believe the statement that Bb is just the right pitch for the average arm
Then why sackbuts in A you ask? (It is modern pitch A...)
A=415-420 was a widely used pitch in the 18th century. Trombones were used extensively in church music to double the choral parts at that time. (This also explains why they read concert pitch.)
Composers tended to use keys with few accidentals at that time. Having a sackbut in modern day Bb would have them play on what was for them a B natural instrument. I can only imagine the horrific slide movements you have to make if you are constantly playing in keys with masses of sharps...

How we got to french horns in F is a long story, but I'll only say there are a lot of 19th century french horns in Eb, and some prominent players prefered that instrument. They lost the argument.

Furtheron I'd like to repeat once more that the often heard statement here that bass clef instruments are written in concert pitch is only true in America..... European tuba parts sometimes tranpose all over the place.

[windshieldbug]

One cannot talk about the fundimental pitches of instruments without also discussing pitch standards. The Bb pitch at the time of Sax (1814-1894) was at least B natural, and getting dangerously close to a what C is now.

From the site you linked to: (Notes on Early 20th Century Pitch Standards)

The standard rose quite dramatically throughout the course of the century so that by the end of the century in some venues, pitch was as high as A=457 (modern Bb is A=466)

Viennese 'high pitch' (1859) - A=456.0
Old Austrian Military Pitch (1880) - A=460.0

That's still noticably below a modern Bb: quite a bit lower than reaching C as you seem to suggest

Wasn't suggesting that A was, only Bb!
And my point wasn't about any PARTICULAR pitch, just that named pitches MOVED AROUND A LOT!

I've never played one of Sax's original instruments, but I've played plenty of other 19th century instruments. The pitch of those were all still in the neighbourhood of the pitch we expect. This is especially easy to see with natural horn crooks because these are marked with the pitch they're supposed to produce.

Which is why they felt it necessary to convene a French Commission in 1859, and a formal Vienna Congress in 1887?

For the sackbut I like to believe the statement that Bb is just the right pitch for the average arm. Then why sackbuts in A you ask? (It is modern pitch A...)
A=415-420 was a widely used pitch in the 18th century. Trombones were used extensively in church music to double the choral parts at that time. (This also explains why they read concert pitch.) Composers tended to use keys with few accidentals at that time. Having a sackbut in modern day Bb would have them play on what was for them a B natural instrument. I can only imagine the horrific slide movements you have to make if you are constantly playing in keys with masses of sharps...

I"m agree about the length; I know they also made alto AND bass sackbuts in the same period they made tenors. But that's just slide length; one can always make the bell section a little shorter or a little longer. And a trombone that reads concert pitch shouldn't have to worry about transpostions... and why transpose at all? Why not just teach the trombone as a C treble clef instrument the way it's taught as a C bass clef instrument?

This IS a very interesting discussion!

[ken k]

to keep arrangers in business......