Help me find the right horn....

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tbone1004
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Help me find the right horn....

Post by tbone1004 »

Oh boy, this is going to tick off a bunch of people.

Background, I am a professional reed player. Do pit orchestras on flute/clarinet/sax and play bassoon in regional symphony orchestras. I played tuba in high school/college marching band and a bit in concert bands. I've always loved the instrument and now that I'm in a financial position to do so, want to invest in a tuba.
Since I've played in BBb for almost 2 decades *admittedly not much in the last 10 years until this summer*, work with students in BBb and this will primarily be used for things like outdoor summer pops concerts, I want to keep it in BBb. I want a BIG tuba. I'm a big guy and am primarily a low reed player and have always loved playing the big 6/4 Martins at Furman and NC State and a few of my buddies big York clones when I was attempting to learn to love CC *didn't work for me*.

Here's the problem, I don't know what I don't know, and while I'm not a bad tuba player, I am not a professional by any means. I know there is a law of diminishing returns from the woodwind world where you hit a point where the nuances of the higher end ones can really only be appreciated by the true professionals, but by the same token there is a MASSIVE difference between say the $4k St Petersburg that I have from the local high school that I work with and the $10k Miraphone 186 that I used when I was in high school.

There was an important word up in the first part that has me questioning everything, invest. I know well, because I own a couple of them, that the horns made properly in Asia can be every bit as good as the ones coming out of Europe/Japan, and I thought that the Wessex Grand or maybe Prokofiev was going to be where I went. Where I have reservations is what the depreciation on these horns is going to look like if I have to/choose to sell. Am I better off spending $15k ish for something like a Hagen or Fafner with pistons or learning to deal with rotors?

It looks like used big BBb horns do not come up very often, and I certainly would prefer to buy used to deal with the depreciation up front, but where would you guys recommend I spend based on use case?
EdFirth
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by EdFirth »

I think you would do well to make one of those tuba conventions, play and hear others play everything in the room. Your ear will tell you what to buy. Best of luck, Ed
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by Brendan Bohnhorst »

Well I just sold a Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb....so I don't anything that fits your bill myself. However, this horn sounds about right for you if you liked your Mirafone 186. It's a big Kaiser style tuba and looks well cared for at a very fair price. Plus John is a super nice fellow too...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=99836

I do agree about a point of diminishing returns on what you spend. And I think that it's wise to purchase a used tuba to get back into playing it. I'm not brand loyal, and have owned Chinese/German/American/British built equipment. At the end of the day, a good tuba is a good tuba regardless of the key it's in or where it was built. Get something that you are excited to pull out of the case (so that you practice it). If it helps you make the sound you want, then you are making music! That's the ultimate goal, right?
Old Tuba Guy
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by Old Tuba Guy »

Could you tell us where you're located? There are a lot of people here, contacts everywhere. We may know where you can play several horns locally.
That being said, it appears you have a substantial budget to work with. If that's the case, and you enjoyed your 4/4-sized 186, consider the 191 (rotors) or 1291 (pistons) from Miraphone, both are compactly-wrapped 5/4 BBb tubas. I had a 6/4 Holton 345 from the 60's for many, many years and thoroughly loved it, recently downsized to a 191, and it is a phenomenal horn. Big, fat sound with incredible low range, and outstanding Miraphone build quality.
Other horns to consider would be an older 4/4 Hirsbrunner, the Miraphone Hagen series (rotors, again), the Wessex for sure, and the King 2341. The newer 2341 is a compact 4/4, the older 2341 is a 2-piece; both horns "play larger" than they are, in my opinion.
Enjoy the shopping, it's great fun!
tbone1004
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by tbone1004 »

I did not actually enjoy the 186, just was using it as a reference to the St Pete that is of similar design. I actually much prefer the open wraps and piston valves but that is likely due to many years marching shoulder contras and sousaphones.

I live in Greenville SC but am regularly in Raleigh.

I think the "dream" would probably be to have something like an old American horn and have it "retrofitted" with a new valve set or something. I have a soft spot for restomodding classic cars and giving something a new life. From what I remember from the BAT's in college is that they are a pain in the *** for intonation and most are 3v which is fine, but the 4th is nice.
Julian
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by Julian »

I know you said you would like a big horn, however, you might want to consider a 4/4 tuba. As a general rule, tubas get harder to play and more out of tune as they get bigger. If you like piston valves and American style tubas, I would look into the Eastman EBB534. I have heard good things about that tuba and I don't think they are too expensive.
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by GeoffC_UK »

Repertoire.
Budget $/£.
Used or new.
Pitch.
Size 3/4...4/4...6/4.
Pistons &/or rotaries.
Manufacturer.
Model.
Silver...lacquer...bare
Bell size
Availability
Playability
Handleability
Re-sale $/£

I found the multitude of choice quite daunting.
Cut out what I didn't like.
Looked for the most available used horn of the rest within my budget, where the manufacturer had a great reputation.
Best of luck
tbone1004
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by tbone1004 »

I'm used to contending with large American style piston horns since the contras we had were Kanstul 5/4's and we had Conn 20k's which people seem to consider 5/4 as well and never had issues with them.

The choices out there is definitely daunting, but the hope of this was to narrow down the manufacturer list a bit to see if it really made sense to spend the extra for the German/American horns vs. the Asian horns and if that premium was going to be worth it.
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by eutubabone »

You may want to look at my 5/4 tuba BBb rotary I have for sale on this Tubenet For Sale site. It's a ZO6000, with an
Altieri gig bag and a hard case with wheels for $2900. It's a nice tuba, inexpensive, I bought it from Tom at Mackbrass about 2 years ago. I'm not playing with professional orchestras anymore and I wanted to get a lighter tuba, so I went back to a Cerveny Piggy CC that I use for community orchestras and a couple of German folk groups here in Atlanta. I live in Stone Mountain, Ga. which is about 2hrs from Greenville, SC. Give me a call at 770-402-4226 or email, Eutubabone54@gmail.com come try it out after you have looked my ad in the Tubenet for sale section.
Brent Vokes, tuba
halissen
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by halissen »

If you are regularly in Raleigh, I suggest you drop by The Tuba Exchange in Durham:
https://www.tubaexchange.com/
They have a huge inventory of new and consignment instruments to try out to help you figure out what feels right and plays well for you (same thing Ed Firth was saying about going to tuba conventions). That's more important than the ROI. From an investment standpoint, in theory instruments made in smaller quantities should become more valuable over time as compared to instruments made for mass consumption, but I have no idea how to model the economics of tuba investing. I believe all well made and maintained tubas will at least retain their value over time.
tbone1004
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by tbone1004 »

Is their inventory typically much larger than what is shown on the website? Color me not impressed with a well used Fafner being $12k against $14k brand new and their selection looks pretty limited on their website.

Brent, I'm going to talk to Tom about that horn, it may fit the bill
eutubabone
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by eutubabone »

Tom would know. I got the ZO6000 from him and fixed some intonation issues that I had with it. It's a big horn compared to the Cerveny piggy that I now play.The Cerveny is in C whereas the ZO is in Bb. The valves are actually better on the ZO (2 yrs old) compared with the piggy (40-50 yrs old), but the piggy weighs 17 lbs, the ZO6000 weighs 24 lbs, and is much bigger, a large 5/4.
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MikeRobinson
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Re: Help me find the right horn....

Post by MikeRobinson »

Check this one out: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=100097

You'll have to pay a decent chunk for shipping to the US, but Daniel knows what he's doing and he'll get it to you in one piece. If it were me, I would take the horn to Sweeney Brass in Raleigh and either have him install a 4th valve or just a new 4-valve block.
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