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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:54 am

KiltieTuba wrote:Bending tubing is pretty easy, just need to be a little careful with how quick and tight you bend the parts. I use cerrobend, but need to drain and fill a couple of time depending on the part. The it’s all hammering and sanding - should be a breeze for you, look at the valve section you did!

Yeah, I bend stuff all the time. I just hate it. Cerrobend is so damned nasty, so I only use it for tight bends because it does not shrink in the tube once it cools. Lead does - just barely, but enough to cause problems if you are making small crooks. I keep hoping that one day I will experiment with soap/ice, but my two trials with it were not good. I could not get the balance of soap to water and I work outside, so by the time I had the work in place the ice was melting and I would get buckles; expensive, depressing buckles... :lol:
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 pm

I've had some success with using pitch (a few "failures", but generally pretty good). I've never had to buy any, either - I save the pitch from pre-drawn mouthpipes, and keep it in a cheapo crock pot.

Before I fill it I anneal the $hi+ out of it, and then let it air cool (thanks Dan!). Then, for good measure, after letting the pitch cool for a long time, I stick it in the refrigerator for a few hours more.

I'm just careful to pour the pitch in real slow, so I don't get any air pockets.

Also, I devised a system where instead of using corks, I drill hole into a 6×6 block of wood, the same OD as the tubing and place it in vertically. This holds the tube steady, allows me to use both hands while pouring, and the block of wood stops the end of the tube pretty nicely.

To bend the tubing, I cut a piece of 3/4" pine with a jig saw to the angle I want. Then, I screw it into my workbench, and then above it I screw a piece of straight wood, snookering the tube tightly inbetween. That gives me the leverage I need to bend it over the curved piece. If you go slowly, and use a long enough piece of tubing (to get better leverage), I've found that the flat edge of the wood doesn't damage the sides, as you think it would.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:14 pm

I do not have *any* trouble doing this stuff. I learned back in 1995. I am really very decent at it.

It is that I *HATE* doing it. I have to do this outdoors, so you can imagine my distaste, what with particulate, bugs, having to used a hotplate and a double boiler in my back yard, etc. I hate it. I find it nasty stuff, and the cleanup sucks, especially with pitch. I have a big jar full of old, dirty-on-the-top pitch I could melt into the tubing, but like you I have had mixed results. It is good for stuff like leadpipes. I just hate having to make 180º crooks that are less than like 2.5" radius because, even with Cerrobend, the stuff will deform slightly on the inside edge, and I despise all that damned hammering and sanding, and the cleanup of the filler material is a mess that I also hate.

It is just a hated task. I can do it just fine, but getting all that crap set up out in the yard sucks, and I just hate doing this stuff. I much prefer soldering or tube cutting to bending crooks. And I have to make some very special parts for my 4th slide design to work. I dread this. HAHAHA!!!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:02 pm

Yes, I agree - cleaning pitch out of the finished product really sucks.... :cry:

I haven't tried to bend anything as tight as you describe. I can't see it as being physically possible to do it without some kind of deformation.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 pm

I used to be able to make 1st slide crooks at the music store back in the 1990s but that was 150 pounds and half a brain ago. I got to where I could do this with very few ripples, but my favorite filler was lead, and if it cools too quickly it can shrink, adding to the ripples. I have used Cerrobend a bunch because it is dimensionally more stable (neither shrinks nor expands much) as it cools. I will try that stuff, but it is sort of scary to work with, like more so than actual lead. Ugh...
_______________________________________

Okay, so today I decided that the "drop crook" from 1st that these valve sets use needs to be a functioning slide. The air direction through 1st means that this potential water trap has never once collected water, so the slide will not be added for that reason. It is strictly for cleaning. I hate snaking/swabbing out long tubes that end in a crook that the snake cannot get around. So now I have this stubby slide that I designed and made all the cuts for this afternoon.

After that head scratching session was over and I was outside working I also added the tube end rings to the 2nd slide, both 1st slides and the long leg for 3rd. I will add the rest tomorrow.

In the process of doing this I made a discovery that should return my soldering to its past glory. (heh, heh...)

Recently I had noticed that my soldering had become messy and that my flux or torch or whatever was completely blackening whatever I worked on. I have a new B tank of acetylene and my torch tip is a 3, which is too big for most stuff.

<rant>I do not have a 2 because Uniweld makes is nigh on impossible to buy anything from their air/acetylene torches, anywhere, ever. They want you to dump that baby stuff and buy tons of industrial welding items. When I speak to a Uniweld rep on the phone they never have an answer for me regarding getting an S22 Soft Flame tip. (That is a standard #2 opening for a 1/8" flame.) All I can find these days is the same old S23 or larger. So I am going with a Goss sometime this Fall. I can find all the tips I need and the Goss torch handle is just like the Uniweld, just in red plastic rather than black. Whatever...</rant>

Okay, so my Eureka moment today was that my metal cleanser is embedding into the pores of the brass. I am using a buttload of soap to clean this stuff but it is not enough. The stuff comes out of the grain and feels like very fine sandpaper, so when you go to fit your freshly lapped inner tube to its mate after some torch time the fit is very tight and almost impossible to cope with. When you set the torch to this "clean" metal it blackens rather fast.

I have been beating myself up over this for some time now, positive that my skills had eroded to the point of ridiculousness. I was wrong, thankfully. All that cleanup was due to my not using a degreaser to clean that schitt off and out of my tubes. That was it.

And it was driving me crazy.

I used some Ferree's lapping compound, which, unlike the Hetman's Unilap stuff pretty much requires you to clean with a degreaser followed by a very soapy washout, and then I soldered these together et voilá! my missing skills suddenly returned. These did not blacken, the flux and solder flowed normally, and everything was predictable. The tubes still worked smoothly. Massive cleanup was not needed.

Conclusion: I will continue to use this cleanser as it does some nice stuff, but I will follow its use with a lot of mineral spirits and then take them back inside to wash them out with tons of soap. If this fails to correct this situation I will have to find another metal-cleaning acid that I can get locally.

So, after all this you can bet your bippy that tomorrow every stinking crook and tube on this horn gets a good degreasing and a fresh washing out.

Also, I have to dump this lead-free solder. It is hell to clean up visible excess as it will NOT buff off. I am going back to tin/lead stuff ASAP.

Anyway, here are some very honest pics of how poorly the tube end rings went on, partially due to these being the final bits I soldered without knowing I needed to degrease everything first, so I got the poor flow, the blackening, the sandy gunk rising up from the metal surface, etc. I was PISSED OFF about this as I did everything perfectly, yet nothing went correctly. The flux dances off this stuff, even when the metal is not all that hot.

So all the rings went on well and straight, but some of them have a lot more exposed solder than I wanted, and as i said, the lead-free stuff does NOT like to come off with brown Tripoli compound. Any suggestions for cleaning this off besides lots of scraping, sanding and then buffing to remove the marks? I am bummed out about this. The first one was a freaking disaster, the next two were okay. The rest all went on cleanly and with ease, once I figured out how little solder needed to be run in (less than a millimeter of some thin stuff will still end up wanting to run out - these take like negative amounts of solder, and I am not kidding.

I keep wanting to tear down my 2nd slide because I dislike the pull, but I keep working on it and today it loosened up to just about where I want it to be. So I may not have to rebuild it again. And now the thing also runs nicely when the assembly is on the valves, so the alignment is finally where I want it, I think.

My little lower 1st slide is mostly made. I have both mini-ferrules installed to the crook, and the tiny leg to the valve casing is installed. The outer and inner leglets have been cut and lapped smooth and I even installed a tube end ring to this little guy, too. The long leg was a spacer before I redesigned this all today. Now it is a functioning slide leg. I have a plan to align these legs very well - short slides like this are a cast iron female dog to line up really well without special tools. So I am happy that I have this sorted.

So tomorrow I will build my 1st slide and finish my 1st slidelet, once I am happy I will brace up the outer legs at the top. Once that is done I can align the lower mini-slide to the main one and install it to the valves.The 2nd slide will then go on and then these two can be braced together. I can add my 5th lever bracket and my thumb ring. Then 3rd can start to go onto the valves.

Getting excited, here. I will have the beginnings of an actual tuba very soon.

But first I have to get some better cutting compound and wail on the tube end rings and my 2nd slide brace that I had to remove, rotate the tube and resolder, leaving pads and junk all over. Lots of cleanup, but stuff is happening, finally!

This is my 1st slide circuit all laid out, with 2nd below it, and the long 3rd tube in the middle of it all. Note the tube end rings on all the outer slide legs, including both ends of long 1st and long 3rd. Also note the cute mini slide on the bottom of 1st. It does not extend downwards any further than it did before. It works, too!
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The two 1st tubes with their crook and with long 3rd in between them...
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It is irritating that 2nd was so hard to align with the original fixed width brace and a new crook that was a full millimeter wider than the ports on the valves. This one slide took me a freaking week to get right. Everything else will take a matter of hours to make with no hangups. But these short 2nd slides always end up biting me in the butt.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:21 am

Today my close, personal friend — Brown Santa — is bringing me a nice box of St. Pete parts for my 5th slide circuit. What is Brown bringing you?

Also, I need to set up my small buffer on a metal table outside and find my box of buffing supplies. I do not use that stuff much, so I have bricks of various compounds and stitched cloth buff wheels buried out in my indoor shop, I know not where. So I will be searching for those today and cruising CraigsList for the grinder table I want for my Harbor Freight buffer (which is actually pretty darned good for my needs). And UPS — I must keep my eyes peeled for my package.

More later...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:24 am

Brown, unless MyPillow (etc.) - half the time, brings me "broken stuff".

Truth be told, Greenie brings more stuff out here than Brownie.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:03 pm

I have only ever had one issue with UPS outside of tuba shipping. I had a 200 pound suspension kit for my old Jeep shipped and the box was open and some of the parts were missing. I attribute this to the new company that sold me the stuff. They (at that time) were great engineers and welders who did not know crap about packing stuff. I have never seen such a bad packing job for something that costs thousands of dollars and is so heavy.

After several gently parsed complaints these guys hired a "shipping specialist" and I have had no issues since. I receive about 250 packages a year through UPS and love them, unless we are talking about musical instruments, which is an entirely different experience for me. I will NOT use them AT ALL, EVER for shipping complete instruments of any size. They are just too rough with fragile packages at the Jackson or Vicksburg hubs. Everywhere else I have lived they have been acceptable with fragile stuff, but in Mississippi the same gorillas who handle the regular packages fling the boxes with horns in them, too. Ugh...

I have had some limited luck with FedEx and big horns, but you *must* pay out the butt for the very spendy overnight or 2nd day air service. This nets your package a different set of hands, more highly trained/coached/threatened/whatever that is outside the normal Ground system. It is also handled by far fewer people in the Air system. And it costs way too much to simply guarantee they do not trash it, and I am generally unwilling to pay for what I should be getting IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I have found that it costs me about the same to simply drive it to where it is going myself. If I can get someone to meet me halfway that is better. I love road trips like this, so this is not an issue except for my time, which is more or less useless anyway. HA!

Anyway, for small parts I have had excellent luck with UPS. It is the USPS that regularly loses or crushes my packages. Regularly. As in monthly. And I cannot get some companies to use any other shipper, no matter how much I offer to pay them. "We have an agreement with a special rate from the Post Office." Yeah, you do. And you will no longer get my money.

My issue with small stuff is the number of complete idiots on eBay who ship stuff out of their living rooms and have no clue and cannot be reasoned with unless you threaten their Feedback score and all that nonsense. I had some fool in California ship me some expensive Japanese specialty pliers in a paper envelope; no padding, just a plain envelope. Of course it arrived empty. He accused me of trying to get a free second pair of these pliers. Same with rare car parts. I received a filthy, dirty, nasty white paper envelope with a perfect impression/stain of my distinctively shaped part on the exterior, but the paper envelope was empty. He tried to pull the same crap with me. This was on a private forum, so I posted pics of the empty envelope to a thread calling him out as a seller to not be trusted. I had a written apology and another part within a few days.

One of the reasons I do not ship is that I know *exactly* how to pack a tuba and I just don't want to mess with it, only to have to make a two hour round-trip drive to ship it from Jackson. That much bother and time is always offset by a nice drive to actually meet someone, shake hands, chat, and have absolutely no one else touch my stuff except for the other party in the deal.

I can get Amtrak service here, but the drop point is "Beer & Butts" where our dozen or so town drunks congregate. I have had one of those scumbags steal a package simply by walking over to the part of the sidewalk where the Amtrak porter dumps these packages and leaves them unattended, all day, forever. If you are not there to pick it up you risk this. And Amtrak never tells you exactly which train it will be on, so you have to go out all day, every day, to greet every train until it arrives.

Or the winos might take it or pee on it or try to crawl inside the box for a nap.

Small towns suck when you have to use shippers to interface with the rest of humanity. 8)
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:06 pm

Small towns may "suck", but big towns suck just as bad, and there's less of a chance of getting shot in small ones - where everyone knows everyone, including all the deputies.

I offer discounts for people picking up tubas here - in-person. A few have taken me up on it.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:10 pm

Do I *want* a nice Baldor buffer?

Yes, I do.

Can I afford one right now?

No, I can't.

I have an old Harbor Freight 1/2 HP buffer that works really well. You can actually lean into the work a good bit and it will not bog down, which is a surprise. (Perhaps I have a very light touch with a buffer and my digging in to the work would be average pressure for some?) I have used it on a table top outside with out ever bolting it down. Not ideal, but good enough for most of my needs. The key to this working well is to get excellent buffs and compounds. The two flaws for me are:

• It is *still* not anchored to anything, so digging in at all is not really possible for any length of time
• the arbors are not long enough to do large items

I have just ordered a decent cast iron bench grinder stand that my buffer will fit on perfectly. I am happy about that. So that will be taken care of soon.

I can deal with the puny 6" buffs but I need arbors that are about 6" longer. Has anyone here ever successfully put longer arbors on one of these Chinese buffers with any sort of success? This little buffer has been good to me, so before I drop $750 to $1200 on a buffer that I won't use all that much I would like to try and modify mine.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:13 pm

bloke wrote:I offer discounts for people picking up tubas here - in-person.


I like that idea a lot.

Regarding getting shot, it is just as bad here as in South Jackson. We hear gun shots every night now, and they are coming from all four points about one block away. We are surrounded and unable to move away. I have my weapons ready to go at all times now. :shock:

Mississippi small towns seem to be much lower in quality than small towns in *normal* places. I blame the water, heh, heh...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Out here,
We hear shooting, but it's not related to robberies or murders.
Some people out here who own 6 acres or more think they can shoot, because it's "legal" (just as spandex-laden hipsters riding 12 mph bicycles on our 19'-wide / no-shoulder / 50-mph state highway is "legal"). "Legal" is not a synonym for "wise".

...so no, dude. Multiply your six-acre patch by ten, and then we can then talk about whether all dimensions are wide enough, and about the effective range of your weapon.
I've been on adjacent properties and had civil (and, yes, armed) talks with a few folks - mostly, who were shooting on land that belonged to their "buddy" (i.e. "trespassers").
Do I have 60 acres? nope
Do I shoot here, rarely? yep...and every target is the ground. If I shoot at (well...) "food" that isn't the ground, I make sure that I can SEE the ground at the end of my trajectories (behind that "food").

' nice Holton !!!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:56 pm

Okay, so I fired up my small 1/2 HP buffing machine, which may have bit the dust today. I have to try it again tomorrow to see if it recovered. I sort of wanted to try to kill it so I knew its limitations. For $40 I can just get another one, and this could tell me how hard I can push it.

The case got very hot after about 15 minutes of continuous use. I ended up running it for about five to ten minutes at a clip, on and off, for about six hours. Then it started to bog down a lot. Eventually very much pressure of any kid would slow it down a lot. If it was simply overly hot and it will work after fully cooling down that would be great. I will only rarely need it to run like it did today. If it actually burned up something so that it no longer has any guts then that is okay. I will get another and treat it more gently. And then I will search for a used Baldor or something of similar quality. I just don't use a buffer enough (and under so much stress) very often, so it is a real luxury for me.

Anyway, on to the tuba...

First: I decided in the eleventh hour that I would make the drop crook on 1st back into a functional slide. This is a major PITA because Mr. Rusk decided to shorten 1st from BBb length to CC length largely by removing most of that part, leaving the knuckle pointing down and going into a 180º crook almost immediately. There is just about no room for an outer slide leg or an inner slide leg plus a ferrule. I did it anyway as I am generally good at lining up slides, even really short ones like this. But it will be hard. I have a trick up my sleeve to get it done right, though.

This crook had a LOT of messy, old solder exposed all over the place. It had been buffed down as flat as could be and then it was lated over. So when I sanded this clean I discovered a lot of this crap. I also found a small dent that had been filled in. I cleaned it out for the most part, pushed the dent up expecting a hidden crack. It was fine. This is a really tight spot, so having dents right there is bad. I have no idea why this had been done. It took thought and effort. Amazing...

So my lead-free solder is really difficult to buff clean, but traditional tin/lead solder comes off with some effort. All this old stuff came off, so I was pretty happy with this little slide as my solder work was pretty clean; there was little to clean up.

I worked on 2nd more. I am thinking it will work as is. I keep flip-flopping on this, but it seems to run pretty well now. I still have not truly decided, though.

I got some of the tube end rings installed the other night and some of them did not appear to go well. I was wrong. All that mess buffed off well after some careful work with a fine-tipped scraper and some light sanding. I got them on:

• 1st long side (both ends)
• 3rd long side (both ends)
• 1st short side
• 2nd both sides

They buffed out nicely, and I was able to push my buffer to wear down and soften all the edges of things. I did the outside edge of each inner and inside edge of each outer so that they guide together very nicely. I used the counter sink to chamfer the inside of each end with a ring on it. (Same reason - they just go together much more easily when you do this extra step.)

I also could not get some of the inner slide legs to lap in well; they were just really tight. I buffed the inner slide legs until the fit was *fair* (but an improvement) and I will lap the two surfaces together one last time. That is all I want to do for fear of them leaking or being too loose.

I shortened 1st by a quarter inch on each side to help with D in the staff, as it is quite close played 1 with the slide all the way in. This extra (combined) half inch ought to make it work. I need to shorten 2nd by the same amount, and this was one of the main reasons I wanted to take it apart again, plus there is a cosmetic issue that I could fix then, and perhaps swap out one of the four tubes. Hmm...

Tomorrow I will buff out the crooks and ferrules. (This ought to suck. Everything to do with ferrules ends up sucking.) I will install and buff out all the remaining end rings. I have to trim the lower 1st knuckle on the casing set, and I need to vent three pistons. That ought to take up a fair amount of my day.

Then the MIL will be taking us out for steak!

Getting lazy with the pics. I had stuff to do. This is the complete tube set for this valve section (with two slides partially assembled) minus crooks and ferrules and some end rings, after buffing (for some), a good rub down with mineral spirits, and finally a hot water bath with lots of Dawn to get off the any residue the mineral spirits missed.

What a lot of work for what appears on first glance to be very little return. But it will pay off in the end.

Goodnight.

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 am

I don't know if your buffer is belt-driven or a manufactured/direct-drive rig, but - if belt-driven - this motor might prove handy to you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-Electric-Motor-3-4-HP-11-AMP-115-V-3450-RPM-CCW-Sander-Lathe-etc-/322704028596

On eBay I couldn't find many motors that were all of these things:
- 3/4 horse
- single phase
- pulley-accepting shaft
- cradle included
- not Harbor-Freight/Jinbao-ish

...a few drawbacks on this particular one:
- The auction says "local pick-up only"...but (maybe...??) Ally House (since she is very nice, and retired) might help you out.
- 11 amp draw would possibly define swapping out your breaker from a 10 to a 15.
- non-reversable

...and I'm sure (if you would eventually like to power-up), you can find "the perfect motor" on eBay eventually.

Years ago, my first belt-driven buffing machine was built with bolted-together 2x4's...It was plenty strong enough, and matched my budget.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:00 am

Like.

But no, I use the enclosed, direct drive buffers. I want a Baldor, but a Dayton would kick some butt, too. I am looking at some Daytons with the goal of making a buffer. I like the 1/2 HP to 3/4 HP motors. I had a 1 horse motor and it drew too much juice for my taste. (It was old and inefficient, but powerful.)

My bench motor is a Dayton, probably built contemporaries of Moses. It works great. I like old motors and tools and such. Thanks for the link, though. 8)
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:39 pm

Sometime, you can look at my sh!tty-sh!tty-sh!t old WOODEN buffing machine (retired, but not discarded) that worked greaty-greaty-great for decades.

I could give you some ideas of how to build a (much better) one out of wood yourself with only a few necessary parts (motor/pulleys/belt/shaft/bearings).

I know you could build a MUCH better one, as I slapped it together VERY hurriedly, and not with any intention of using it beyond the ONE job for which I slapped it together.

The long shaft, which is possible with a belt-driven machine, obviously comes in handy for big instruments, as does a minimum 3/4 h.p. motor.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:59 pm

So, one of my sticking points in this project has been the fact that all my straight tubing in the valve section is .770"-ish and the crooks are .750"-ish, which looks like a big difference, but when you look at it realistically, like having the two sizes of tubing next to one another, you can see that it is not such a big deal.

I purchased (and also had stashed away) some Miraphone slide crooks. I decided to keep my 1st slide crook as it is of a weird radius. I did not want to have to make a new one. I got a new 2nd crook, as well as top 3, top 4, and bottom 4, and I bought a lower 5th crook to use for bottom 3.

The issue is that my Miraphone crooks for 3rd did not share the same relationship in radius as do the original parts. The larger crook is about 4mm too wide for the two slides to line up unless they block the small MTS tube coming out of 4th. To rotate this assembly back up where it used to be would *require* I widen the top crook or narrow the bottom one. These are brand new and I refuse to cut and ferrule them to make up for this. I was intent on not reusing the old crooks, too.

The issue (and the source for a number of ongoing battles or problems with this tuba) has always been that the knuckle coming out of 3rd is only 2mm from touching the 4th casing. With an outer slide tube installed it is under a millimeter gap. This is not good.

The answer was to cut the knuckle off the valve set (which was a real trick because of the layout (no space for the Dremel or the jeweler's saw) and because I have a limited selection of junk crooks of the right radius to make this work. In point of fact, I had one. It was cracked and distorted and nasty inside.

I ended cutting off both ends to get a good section. It is just a tad too small, so I had to expand the ends. You can see this in the photos. It is just like all the other knuckles. But I got it done. I used the butt-end of an old Miraphone ferrule so that I would not have to waste any of my new stuff and get out the mini miter saw. The Miraphone ferrule had been cut down my me years ago and then never used. It was the perfect length for this project.

After getting everything cut off, all the ends flat, and everything smooth I soldered it all together. First try left me with a small leak right up next to the valve casing, which was to be expected. To keep this neat I soldered the ferrule to the knuckle from the inside and I thought there was a short run that got no solder, and sure enough...

I soldered on the new knuckle from outside and then did the cleanup work. Then I did the soapy water leak test and found it. After a quick touch up with the torch alles ist gut.

I then washed everything out again super carefully to get all the brass "dust" pasted to the insides of the cut knuckles (I had to trim one of 1st's, too) and did my post-screw-with-the-valve-casings test to see whether I had pushed in any of the knuckles during all this work.

[Regarding the 1st knuckle, I turned the lower crook into a functional slide and had to shorten it by almost quarter inch to accommodate this.]

So my knuckles are free of dents except for the damage done to the entry and exit ports when the horn must have fallen over onto the valves at some time in the past. I have no idea how to fit this damage, but the horn plays well, so whatever...

The last bit I need to do to the valve casings is to buff out a scratch I put into it today (DOH!) and some work to the MTS port since it is installed crooked. I have been working to gradually bend this knuckle into alignment with the others. Just a bit more and I think it will be fine.

I am very pleased that now I can use both the nice, new Miraphone crooks for my 3rd slide circuit. I got what I wanted, but I had to do some extra work to make it happen.

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Just press fit to see if it would now line up adequately. It does...

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:00 am

Okay, so we decided to go outside again and work. It was breezy, cool and raining. The wind played hell with my torch.

We worked from about 7:30 until about 10:30 and got the 3rd slide circuit made. I have to make some small adjustments to inner tube length to account for the fact that the lower third fits onto my new knuckle about 1/4" less than it did before. I also decided to go back to my old spacer setup, with the short side of bottom 3 getting cut just before the brace. I also will be clipping off some of upper 3's short tube, too, as it fills that whole, long thing and I only need like 4" of pull. I will fix all that tomorrow. I have the bottom aligned as good as it needs to be and it is braced, so that is a done deal. I need the upper slide to move for tuning adjustments, so it needs to be somewhat more free moving. Shortening the inner leg on the top slide that goes into the valve will solve this.

My observations on my new knuckle so are are chiefly that it needed to be about a millimeter or 1.5mm to be perfect. As it is, I am very pleased.

I still have to do the final alignment to the top 3rd slide. It is real close right now. It may be off by a half mm down at the open end, which is like 8", so that is not a huge error to correct. I think I will use two braces on the upper tubes to ensure they stay aligned, even if I am not too careful with this horn. (I am a bit of a klutz.) I will get that done tomorrow.

I am most pleased that my adjustments to the dogleg that heads up from 4th now allow me plenty of access to my 3rd water key, and 4th is not going to be a problem at all.

I did a cursory buffing to everything to make future cleanup much easier. It all looks very nice right now, even the silly tube end rings. I am glad I decided to add that bit of unnecessary work as I really like the results.

So, tomorrow I will try to get all the tube lengths adjusted to this and to the 2nd slide and get them on the valve set and fully braced. I will look at getting first built and on the horn, too, but no promises. I think I want to go see Bladerunner tomorrow, so no long work day for me.

Here are the pics I took when I wrapped it up for today. They look suspiciously like the pics above, but everything is soldered in place. Sorry, not too exciting. I know. You want excitement? Rob a liquor store. I am all about boring tubas and such. Later, y'all...

Still hot from the torch...

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That is not an optical illusion; I think that brace may be crooked. Dammit...

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Some adjustments to the internal spacers will fix the gaps. Top gets aligned and braced tomorrow...

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My main fear was that altering the geometry of the knuckles and crooks would make 3rd slip down and interfere with the MTS. It is actually a little bit less tight, now, believe it or not. Yes, that flopped down some. It is not soldered on yet. The alignment has more room that the photo indicates.

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I was also very worried that there would not actually be room for my finger to depress the button on the water key on the 3rd knuckle. After some trimming to the dogleg it is not an issue...

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Still off, but only a tiny bit. I will get this ironed out tomorrow.

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby Tubajug » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:40 am

That's looking great Wade! I love the nickel-silver slides with ends you made!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:08 pm

Your work looks terrific! Keep posting!
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