Holton 345 Redux Bookmark and Share

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:09 pm

I feel your pain....

The way I cut ferrules (and tube ends in general) is much more low-tech. I mark a fine line all around the tube, and then place it on a tapered dowel in my vise, moving the tube up the dowel until it fits tightly. Then, I slowly cut along the line, as I slowly turn the tube on the tapered dowel (kinda like a primitive hand-operated lathe). Once I get the line scored, I can start to add more pressure and cut deeper. Then, dressing the ends with sandpaper, file, and scraper.

Slow, tedious, and annoying, but it "gets the job done".
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:19 pm

(Let me know if the video will not play or does not show up. It is restricted, so I can post it, but I am not sure anyone else can see it unless I change the settings.)

Here is how I used to do it. It sucked, but it worked really well.

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:43 pm

Today's output was tube end rings. I cut and finished seventeen of them. That is more than I need, but I may have to change my 4th slide layout and an additional slide (or removable section) may have to be added, so better to have some already made rather than have to do this all from scratch every time.

You were talking about ferrules... I had to make 16 (12 known to be needed and some extras). Some are in use now, but here is the whole mess of all the tiny bits I have had to make so far, minus some special ferrules with spacers in them, as well as a few small spacers)...

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Here is my measly setup. That hospital table is my "shop" for all intents and purposes. Sad. I know. 8)

On it is my mini miter saw and some of my excellent deburring tools made by Noga in Israel.

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Here is the fruit of my labor, so to speak: tube end rings...

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Here is my guinea-pigged outer tube with the first end ring, the inner tube with it, and the tube stock where I got my rings from...

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Very impressive!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby Kirley » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:14 am

the elephant wrote:(Let me know if the video will not play or does not show up. It is restricted, so I can post it, but I am not sure anyone else can see it unless I change the settings.)

Here is how I used to do it. It sucked, but it worked really well.



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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby cambrook » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:27 am

Me too
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:48 am

Me and all.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:21 am

Please give the video another try.

Two years ago I had to shut down access to my videos due to threats by an online stalker harassing me, both here and on YouTube. He is gone now, but I forgot to turn my videos back on. I just tried that and the link above ought to be active now. You may have to reload your page several times to flush the cache and get a result because the link address did not change at all.

Please let me know.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby KiltieTuba » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:49 am

Works for me now!
Are you gonna start doing some videos of the Holton?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby The Big Ben » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Fun video! Do you need to do as much post-cutting dressing with your new chop saw?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:48 pm

KiltieTuba wrote:Are you gonna start doing some videos of the Holton?


Maybe, if anyone wants to see anything specific or if mrs. elephant feels like having a "Cecil B. DeMille Day" in the carport. Let me know. The above video was from that Eb project a few years ago. It is old. (Ugh, *I* am old.)

The Big Ben wrote:Fun video! Do you need to do as much post-cutting dressing with your new chop saw?


Yeah, about the same. The cut-off wheel for the Proxxon is exactly the same sort of fiberglass reinforced stuff as the Dremel, but 3 1/8"" in diameter. I am using these nice deburring tools, and while somewhat neater and faster, it is all the same game. Scrap, file, scrape, file, sand, repeat.
Last edited by the elephant on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:25 pm

Today was one of the most productive (and good-news-filled) in some time.

• removed last bits of silver plate from casings
• worked out dents in casing knuckles except damage to entry/exit ports (tuba fell onto its valves before I owned it)
• trimmed six knuckles to level them and remove gaps when assembled to slides
• drilled and deburred holes for new water keys
• installed water keys to knuckles so the tuba never gurgles again :mrgreen:
• burnished every millimeter of the valve casings
• hand polished casing set, focusing between each cylinder and on the ports and pins
• worked out small hangs in 1st and 3rd piston action
• installed hand cut bronze bushings for my home-brew PVAK
• disassembled with torch, ran through chemicals, cleaned up, de-dented and deburred B&S main slide crook

I focused on all the detail work on the casing set so after assembly I have much less to do to clean up when I have much less access to those spaces.

During all this I discovered that my new-to-me (probably from the 1980s) B&S F tuba main slide is the *exact* radius I need and that the large end fits my rotor perfectly. The small end is about .748" and I need it to be .770" ID. I expanded the end simply to see the fit of the Miraphone tubing and it is great once the crook has been adjusted. Tomorrow I plan on annealing the first four inches of this crook and opening it up to .770" cleanly and neatly until the crook has expanded past this size. It looks like the first 2.5" or so will have to be opened up this small amount. This is a super thin and soft crook, so after annealing it this will be pretty easy. I have to build a form for it out of some old chunks of MDF I have so that the stresses of the balling-out process do not bend or otherwise deform the crook.

This crook is about a half inch wider than my current one, which is from a 1931 York BBb sousaphone and is .770"/.825" at the ends and just a bit too narrow to fit my valves within my 6th branch. (The MTS this tuba came to me with was a terribly hand bent one that was all misshapen and way too narrow.

This allows me to use the very cool B&S MTS brace with the blue and bold logo medallion in the center. These are actually metalized plastic (like the chrome parts for a plastic model car) and are held to the brace with hot glue. Cheap. However, the brace itself is rather expensive and it fits perfectly, saving me work.

Now all I need to do is come up with something to put in that medallion holder. Perhaps a custom cut sheet of nickel silver with an elephant engraved on it? HA! Probably more like a big dollar sign!

Anyway, the horn has all nickel silver outer slide tubes, with most of the inners being yellow brass. The inners on 1st are of NS for several reasons. There are two tubes on the horn (not counting the 5th slide loop) that are nickel plated. This looks very different and might eventually come off. This B&S slide has a NS outer tube on the large side that actually fits my brass inner leg BETTER than the nickel plated one that I dislike so much. (It is very loose and leaks.) The other is a short length from the end of the rotor to the 6th branch. I also have the ferrule for the MTS large side made from the same plated tubing. (All the plated - and poorly fit - tubing is St. Pete stock, if you care.) Anyway, now I have real NS for these three parts so that every slide tube matches with no weirdness. I was very happy to see my chance purchase worked out just about perfectly for me!

Today was an exceptional one for me. :tuba:

Piston casing set after hours of burnishing between every little bit plus one fast polish with Simichrome. Remember that it used to be silver plated...
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Here are the Pollard water keys. They are weird looking but I like them. They have a huge hole so they drain very fast. The damage to the interior of the two knuckles was not bad at all and I do not expect any sort of acoustical weirdness from these.
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Here you can see all the damned detail work I had to do to get rid of the silver plate and then burnish all the damage until it looked good. Simichrome polish kicks some major butt, too.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:17 pm

These valves will remain raw brass, but I want them to be as "clean" as possible before the patina starts.

Anyway, onward...

Here is the B&S crook and the funky brace I rescued today. The water key was a surprise in just how terrible a job was done installing it. The hole was drilled after using a spring-loaded center punch. It caused a huge dent in the crook that was almost the size of the nipple that covered it up. It was really poorly done. Further, there were two huge burrs in there, both sticking straight up into the air path about three millimeters, which is a huge disturbance at this place in the crook. I had to push these two "blades" back into the hole and then out, snip them off, and then deburr the hole. Then I had to remove the dings in the crook and push up that huge divot the assembly monkey put in the crook with the punch. Now it is very round and smooth. I will put my 3rd Pollard water key over this hole when I build the main slide.

Here is a crook about the size of the original Rusk crook. It is straight bore, however, and well shaped. The Rusk one was well made using a draw plate (you could see the marks internally from the work) but it was poorly tapered. It sort of exploded into the new bore size, like two sizes with about a half inch of transitional taper. Then it was bent rather crookedly so that the apex of the curve was way off to the large side and not in the center as it should be.

The second crook is the York sousaphone MTS that is very nicely made, but it has some weirdness to the taper rate and the roundness at the two "corners" of the bend. Viewed from the top of bottom it is sort of bulged out at the two tighter parts of the curve. It was a sousaphone and not one of their "premium" tubas, so it was probably not one of their best guys that made it. It is still a great crook and made the horn play better, slowing the taper down to closer to where it needed to be.

The bottom crook is the B&S-made one. It is the width I need to make everything fit in the space better than it ever has in the past since this horn was cut and converted by Mr. Rusk. It is too small on the small side, however. But as you can see, it is sort of artificially necked down to make it fit the 4th valve exit port, and it happens too soon, then runs straight through the first 2.5" or so. It becomes .770" at about 3" in, so I will simply anneal that end and build it a form from MDF that will support its shape while I hammer greased ball bearings through it until the first few inches are expanded out to the correct size.

This B&S crook slows down the too-fast taper even more, making the transition from the 4th piston @ .770" to the 5th rotor @ .825" much more in line with the overall taper rate of the horn, and, therefore, it will bring me much happy.

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Now this leaves me with my above question: WHAT SHOULD I HAVE MADE TO FIT THIS MEDALLION FRAME? (Keep it clean, ladies...)

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I really like this brace and want to use it if at all possible, but I will NOT put that B&S logo on my 345! 8)

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:32 pm

I was thinking of having the MOP removed by a jeweler and have him replace them with lapis lazuli, which is one of my favorite stones. I could also have him install it in both sides of the MTS brace. I think that might be pretty low visibility bling. Something like this, perhaps?

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby Casca Grossa » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:30 am

the elephant wrote:I was thinking of having the MOP removed by a jeweler and have him replace them with lapis lazuli, which is one of my favorite stones. I could also have him install it in both sides of the MTS brace. I think that might be pretty low visibility bling. Something like this, perhaps?

Image


I like it!!! BTW...haven't posted my opinion of the valve work. From what the pictures look like...WOW!!! I can't wait to see the finished product. I don't smoke but when the reveal happens of the completed horn, I might need to smoke one afterward.
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Why have 3 valves when you can have 6 and a main tuning slide kicker???
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:58 am

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...or find some little trinket such as this one, cut out the elk-head, and solder it down to the oval.

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:16 pm

Elk-head

Elk-horn

Very clever..... 8)
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:08 pm

So today I used my hammering ball bearing sets to open up the bore of some of the old parts I will have to reuse on the Holton.

The valve set, as assembled by Herr Nirschl for Böhm & Menil back in 1990 used 19 mm ID tubing. Mr. Rusk (and perhaps others over the years) used some of this size, but using a different wall thickness, so none of the newer stuff is compatible with the original parts. You cannot interchange slides despite them having the same ID. (Why you would want to do this is beyond me, but whatever: it was not an option with this tuba.)

The entire 4th slide circuit was made of mismatched stuff, much of it actually being made from 18.5mm (.728") tubing. He also did this in that horrible 5th valve assembly in the leadpipe. That single cobbled-together acoustical nightmare used three separate bore sizes of inner slide tubing, and none of them matched the rotor bore or the leadpipe at that point in the taper! :shock:

All the stuff I replaced used .750" ID matched tubing sets from Allied, so after I fixed the initial horrors this tuba had about six different dimensional tube sizes. It should have used two, an inner leg and and outer. Ugh...

Today I was faced with making four crooks or keeping the original ones. I also need two of Mr. Rusk's doglegs. Well, all of the ones I need were either 18.5 or 19 mm and need to be 19.5 mm. I do not think I will bother bumping any of it to 19.5 since 19 is so frigging close. I managed to ball out everything to a snug 19 mm and everything fits everything else very well now. All those crooks are a tiny bit fatter. One dogleg is, too. The flowers in Dogpatch are blooming again and all the Schmoos are happy...

So, the first part I tried to ball out cracked, so I have to re-anneal it tomorrow to finish that process, then I have to silver solder the two cracks. I hate silver soldering because I have no pickle to clean up the mess afterwards, which means sanding and other junk. Dammit. I *did* anneal this, but obviously not enough. Also, it turned out to only be 18 mm ID!!! WTH? Mr. Rusk, why did you slap a .709" part on a tuba you claimed to have a .748" bore?????? I probably annealed it just fine. Trying to bump the bore a full millimeter was probably the real issue. That is a large jump in bore to make by hand.

So I have to fix that crap as I need that dogleg. I have some leftover inner slide leg tubing in nickel silver that I could *try* to bend into this dogleg's length and offset, but I hold no illusions of what a home-bent nickel silver part would end up looking like. I may order up one more length of this specific tube in yellow brass. At least I *know* I can bend that successfully. I have never tried to anneal and bend nickel silver tubes. Hmm...

Anyway, one of the best parts of the day involved that B&S MTS crook. I was so excited yesterday when I realized that it has the correct radius to fix an assembly issue my horn has had since I moved the 5th valve and changed the MTS crook from the Rusk-made one to the York sousaphone crook. This $30 eBay purchase netted me three very important parts that would normally have cost me a lot more. However, despite the crook being of the correct radius and the large side fitting the rotary valve perfectly, the small side was about 18.5 mm. With some work I got it up to 19.5 mm with a very smooth transition into the rest of the crook's stock taper. You cannot tell I did anything at all, and this is normal for a straight tube, but for a tapered one you frequently have some weirdness as your expanded section runs into the original taper. Not so, today.

So one crook that turned out perfect, one dogleg with two small cracks, and a lot of important parts expanded up to where they will work with my new parts very well — not a bad day! :mrgreen:

Lots of work but no pics. (Like you could see any of that stuff, anyway.) I am sorting out and finalizing stuff so I can begin assembling things. I am still not happy with how my 2nd slide pulls' the alignment is still off a bit. (Short slides seem to be much more difficult to align that long ones.) Assembly cannot proceed until that is fixed, installed, and buffed up.

I will look at getting that done tomorrow after I fix that damned, cracked dogleg...

Goodnight.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:23 am

Idiot me has had my form for setting up my Conn-Selmer account for two months. I kept putting it off. I hate printing, filling out and signing, scanning in and then sending forms. This one required an actual signature. So I put it off and then forgot about it.

Tonight I realized I needed some parts from them *for certain* and that I had no account, yet.

Then I learned that you can sign a PDF using the trackpad and your finger.

I feel really stupid right now. :oops:

Form filled out and sent. Now to wait a week for it to be "processed" so that I can start raiding the Eastlake cookie jar, so to speak...

(thanks, roweenie)
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby KiltieTuba » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:15 am

Bending tubing is pretty easy, just need to be a little careful with how quick and tight you bend the parts. I use cerrobend, but need to drain and fill a couple of time depending on the part. The it’s all hammering and sanding - should be a breeze for you, look at the valve section you did!
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