Holton 345 Redux Bookmark and Share

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:47 pm

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:50 pm

Here is my first idea for a 4th routing. The original one worked very well but was not so open and it permanently blocked access to two of the pistons from the bottom. No way to get a burnisher/reamer in, so no way to fix the two damaged pistons on the horn. To fix the pistons I had to disassemble the 4th slide, which was one of the first times I had to dip into this bucket of horrors.

My rerouted 4th worked just as well and blew more like the first three pistons. Nothing was blocked, either. However, I used what I had on hand and it was a sort of weird routing with four slides and a huge pretzel at the bottom that I disliked.

This time I want to make the part that would have solved a lot of problems with both previous wraps, which is a large crook that will live just around the outside of the 6th branch, which looks like it will eat up about 14" of tubing.

The only variables are the two lower slide lengths. I would like the inner one to be longer to help fill that goofy looking Rusk signature of the donut tuba: the space above the bottom bow is empty and all the tubing is crammed up by the top bow. This will help with that some, and I don't think it will F with the acoustics. So, if that slide is longer the outer long tube between the upper and lower 4th slides will be much shorter. That, too, will look sort of odd, but I think I prefer the more balanced look with the slide inside the bottom bow, and all that will be much better protected inside a gig bag than one of those super-long outer 4th slide tubes.

Anyway, I have to do all my measurements and make that big a$$ crook sometime soon.

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:50 pm

Very resourceful!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:41 am

I don't particularly like the "look" of it, but Jonathan's new buddy, Nickles, came up with a 4th valve routing (one one of their prototypes) where some of the #4 tubing traces the bottom bow along the upper part of the front. It's a low-damage area, and uses up a bunch of tubing really quickly. You could possibly end up with two upper-oriented #4 slides with such a routing: one in the typical spot, and another next to the front of the bell. Finally, it doesn't require the incredible precision of shape that does yet another tube fished around over the upper end of the valve block.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:04 pm

bloke wrote:I don't particularly like the "look" of it, but Jonathan's new buddy, Nickles, came up with a 4th valve routing (one one of their prototypes) where some of the #4 tubing traces the bottom bow along the upper part of the front. It's a low-damage area, and uses up a bunch of tubing really quickly. You could possibly end up with two upper-oriented #4 slides with such a routing: one in the typical spot, and another next to the front of the bell. Finally, it doesn't require the incredible precision of shape that does yet another tube fished around over the upper end of the valve block.


I'm always looking for fresh ideas - could you post a photo?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:30 pm

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:I don't particularly like the "look" of it, but Jonathan's new buddy, Nickles, came up with a 4th valve routing (one one of their prototypes) where some of the #4 tubing traces the bottom bow along the upper part of the front. It's a low-damage area, and uses up a bunch of tubing really quickly. You could possibly end up with two upper-oriented #4 slides with such a routing: one in the typical spot, and another next to the front of the bell. Finally, it doesn't require the incredible precision of shape that does yet another tube fished around over the upper end of the valve block.


I'm always looking for fresh ideas - could you post a photo?


Were I (??) to be influenced by this tack, this isn't quite what I would do, but here's the picture...

Image
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:32 pm

bloke wrote:
roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:I don't particularly like the "look" of it, but Jonathan's new buddy, Nickles, came up with a 4th valve routing (one one of their prototypes) where some of the #4 tubing traces the bottom bow along the upper part of the front. It's a low-damage area, and uses up a bunch of tubing really quickly. You could possibly end up with two upper-oriented #4 slides with such a routing: one in the typical spot, and another next to the front of the bell. Finally, it doesn't require the incredible precision of shape that does yet another tube fished around over the upper end of the valve block.


I'm always looking for fresh ideas - could you post a photo?


Were I (??) to be influenced by this tack, this isn't quite what I would do, but here's the picture...

Image


Makes for an "open wrap", but not quite my "cup of tea"....
Last edited by roweenie on Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:35 pm

roweenie wrote:Meh....


Yeah...I know...not particularly "pretty"...but if the upward-oriented crook on the tube next to the bell were narrower, that (again) could offer a second upper-oriented #4 slide.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:37 pm

Man, you're too quick for me!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:42 pm

bloke wrote:Image


OMG that is not my cup of tea at all!

But thanks, Joe.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:25 pm

Attempt #2 to get the bugle where I want it.

I took it all apart again and fixed the joint (and angles) between the top bow and 3rd branch. The ferrule had massive gaps on the small side to 3rd branch.

It was also mounted with a wicked elbow to try and straighten out the valve section; with that it still did not straighten out the valve section. At some point I realized how badly over-bent the top bow was made at the factory I started to understand why Mr. Rusk had scrunched the top bow so far behind and tilted so far over toward the bell.

<sigh the 1st>

I noted also that four of the six branches are over-bent to one degree or another; only two are *straight* by eyeball.

Originally, every branch had been assembled so the the joint to the next one made a "C" that was slightly too far open. By doing this all the way through the bugle the valve section ended up being straight.

So now, after a good deal of head scratching, I have figured out the dirty secret, so to speak: We was not concerned with the valve set angle so much as getting it closer to the bell at all costs because you cannot cut out any additional tubing anywhere now, and the horn must have been very flat.

<sigh the 2nd>

By fixing all this I will end up with a very short leadpipe like on the two CSO Yorks, which I have trouble holding to play.

<sigh the 3rd>

So now I just want it back together to get a baseline for final assembly. Once it is working I will work out where to make some additional cuts, probably in the 5th and 6th branches, but only like a half inch each so that I do not screw with the acoustics much, and to make it pay off pitch-wise it needs to be smaller ID tubing and not from the big branches. I may have to once again use the original narrow MTS crook.

Anyway, I currently have the top bow clocked to be inline with the bell - the top and bottom bows are straight to one another. This pitches the top bow over until it is canted away from the bell a bit. I hate how that looks, but man, the leg on the 3rd branch is now straight with the bell; the valves will go one dead straight with ease.

However, I believe I have shoved the valves pretty far over from where they had lived. That narrow MTS crook is calling my name now.

I need to get the bell ferrule off because it is crooked on the bottom bow. The other big ferrule is also crooked with the new alignment. So, if there is a 3rd attempt with the bugle I will clock it to the rear of the horn a little bit to remove much of that outward can on the top bow. This may end up being the sweet spot. Where it is not is probably not. Where it was was definitely not. More head scratching. More time on the valve set and inner branches.

The bugle needs to come apart AGAIN.

<sigh the 4th>

Here are some pics from today's bugle alignment prototyping session. (I like that name since it implies that all this is okay and expected. I am prototyping. I am making a new tuba from old parts. No guidebook, no reference points, and so far no luck. Heh...)

At least the bell is off so I can fix the taco-ed rim and then all the wrinkling to the throat from the first bit of rim flattening.

A depressing site, all torn down again...
Image

The four cardinal views: You can see the large ferrule is crooked, the bottom bow cants toward the front of the horn, and the two bottom bow ferrules are nowhere near aligned. And the top bow cants outwards. Add to that the fact that the valves will end up being a good bit farther from the bell, necessitating a longer leadpipe and you have a depressed pachyderm. Tear it apart again, fat boy... :cry:
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:36 pm

It looks as though you are orientating the top bow so that it is dead center to the bell plane - all the 6/4 Holtons I've seen have it slightly behind:


Image


I ran into a similar problem when I was putting together a 6/4 Holton that I received in parts. When I was finally able to see an original horn and observe how it was laid out, I had an "aha" moment.

Maybe that will help bring things a little more in line? (I say "maybe" because even "uncut" factory Holton branches tend to be pretty horrendous when it comes to "fit and finish".....)
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:16 pm

It used to be squished over and behind in an attempt to shorten the leadpipe. I made the centerlines of the top bow and bell parallel and all was great. Taking it further then s time I put the bottom and top bows in line. Not gonna happen. I did that so my badly over-bent top bow would allo my valve set to be mounted strains without making all the bugle joints “obtuse”. It was intentional.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:10 pm

Those that I've taken apart and put back together have been offset-oriented, as far as the top bow is concerned, and with a not-a-Holton valveset, it's going to need to be "whatever it needs to be".
If the bottom bow connection rings line up with the bottom bow ends, but end up cockeyed...
take them off, clean off the solder, put them on straight ("parallel to ground"), mark the bottom bow ends straight with the proper-appearing connection rings, and - if need be (??) - take some sheet metal shears to the bottom bow ends. There's no "science" to those Holton's (...and do not misinterpret this as claiming they were/are "crap". I am NOT stating that, and ...well... I have two Holton's to here to eventually restore/sell myself, so I cannot AFFORD to irresponsibly claim they are "crap"), but many of them were hastily/carelessly fabricated and assembled. Think/measure TWENTY or THIRTY times, and cut ONCE, but - if something will benefit from being cut - cut it.

It's going to turn out just fine.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roweenie » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:40 pm

bloke wrote:It's going to turn out just fine.


+1
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:56 pm

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:It's going to turn out just fine.


+1
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:47 pm

bloke wrote:Those that I've taken apart and put back together have been offset-oriented, as far as the top bow is concerned, and with a not-a-Holton valveset, it's going to need to be "whatever it needs to be".
If the bottom bow connection rings line up with the bottom bow ends, but end up cockeyed...
take them off, clean off the solder, put them on straight ("parallel to ground"), mark the bottom bow ends straight with the proper-appearing connection rings, and - if need be (??) - take some sheet metal shears to the bottom bow ends. There's no "science" to those Holton's (...and do not misinterpret this as claiming they were/are "crap". I am NOT stating that, and ...well... I have two Holton's to here to eventually restore/sell myself, so I cannot AFFORD to irresponsibly claim they are "crap"), but many of them were hastily/carelessly fabricated and assembled. Think/measure TWENTY or THIRTY times, and cut ONCE, but - if something will benefit from being cut - cut it.

It's going to turn out just fine.


I *know* this. I already did this. (Past posts/photos.)

I am trying to see what else works. I am trying to IMPROVE what Rusk did, which was horrible. I just hate getting it all together and then knowing it all has to come apart again. I don't like doing work several times. This is not a take-apart-put-together job. I am truly prototyping this horn. It is unlike any other horn out there, so I have no reference points and my assembly jigs are scraps of 2x4 and 4x4 lumber and angles MDF wedges. I just wish there was a way to make it LOOK like I want, but Mr. Rusk seems to have made that impossible. And there is literally nowhere else from which to remove tubing so I can use the longer leadpipe I want or need. Not looking for help, just expressing facts. Only rarely am I looking for help, and I am very clear when I need it. Thanks, though.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:02 pm

Okay, so vacation time is over. Back to work. I have a week off from EVERYTHING (Hooah!) and plan on trying to get this horn assembled to the point where I can design and build 4th and 5th.

Today will mostly be pounding on the bell and perhaps moving my Z-60 to another room where I can do some with it and not be impeded by foxes or furniture. I will also probably take the top bow off the bottom one and put the bottom bow back onto the bell.

Ugh, I need to learn patience...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Fri May 25, 2018 10:30 pm

Any news on your project?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat May 26, 2018 10:22 am

Nope. Been busy, sick, or both at once. I tore down some stuff to start over on the inner branches, but I have to so some tube bending and some brazing, so I have been putting this work off. Excuses, excuses. I know... :mrgreen:
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