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now: ENGRAVED!!! bloke's German valveset cimbasso project

Postby bloke » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:07 am

goals:
- enjoy playing the cimbasso, which means German rotors, and no Jinbao rotors.
- more control when playing the cimbasso, so a valveset bore reduction from .728" to .689", a tapered bore tuning slide crook from c. .656" - .689", and a reduced bore mouthpipe tube which will now range from c. .500" bore to (l-o-n-g taper) c. .656" bore with a small shank mouthpiece receiver.
- I'm replacing the bell section as well, so I'll probably be offering an entire Jinbao cimbasso (made to play as good as one can be made to play) for sale, assuming this project is a success...Please do not email or message about this. It is NOT for sale at this time.

...so here's the German-made (smooth/quiet/balanced/reliable) .689" bore F-length valveset which - other than the 4th valve tubing wrap the the lack of a #1 slide trigger that it will surely require - puts me off to a very good start. I have most all of the other crap I need (no pictures) and will not be offering blow-by-blow pictures, but might (??) take a couple of pictures now-and-then.

Image
Last edited by bloke on Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:54 pm

OK...
Just to prove this is not a joke,
Here is the angled/tapered tubing branch I made today.
It's a fairly vital part, as it is required to connect the valveset half of the cimbasso to the bell section.
The Jinbao copy of a Rudy Meinl features a branch which expands from the valveset bore of .728" to the bell male receiver bore of .768"
The one that I made (for the .689" bore valveset) expands from the valveset bore of .689" to the (same) bell male receiver bore of .768"

Please note, I'm not stealing the Jinbao bell section from my old Jinbao cimbasso.
Have actually have a second, brand-new Jinbao bell section, so I'll end up (assuming success, here) with my complete/old Jinbao cimbasso left over (probably, to offer for sale eventually).
The Jinbao bell section features no moving parts, and sounds great, so there's no reason to replace it with something different.

There are several doodads remaining to install on this part...some reinforcing strips, and an interlocking receiver reinforcement (not seen in the picture, as it's on the opposite side).
There's also a bit of minor smoothing to do to the branch.
This project may not end up being difficult, but it's going to be tedious. :roll:
At least (hopefully?), I'll end up with a musical instrument, rather than a mock-up of one.
"tedious" - the reason I do not agree to realize other's "projects"
Image

After I get the wiz-bangs added to this curved/tapered branch, I'll start work on the mouthpipe, as well as figuring out how I'm going to mount the mouthpipe.
Just as with the Jinbao/Rudy, the mouthpipe will be quite long with a gradual taper, but (again, rather than tapering from approximately .530" to .728") it will taper from approximately .500" to .656", and will sport a SMALL SHANK receiver, with which I plan to use my small shank (Sellmansberger) "Solo" mouthpiece with the #0 back-bore.

After that, I've got to deal with the main slide.
(goal: Fabricate a wide tuning slide crook that mimicks the Jinbao/Rudy, except that - rather being .728" bore cylindrical - it will taper from .656" to .689").

After that, I need to compact (more two-dimensional) and reroute (more elongated) the 4th slide loop...Again, I don't expect much trouble, only tediousness.

Finally, this instrument is surely (just as with the Jinbao) going to need a #1 slide trigger...and (well, of course) a floor peg.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby Mark » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:04 pm

Are you going to change the way the bell section locks onto the body?
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:55 am

Mark wrote:Are you going to change the way the bell section locks onto the body?


nope...
Possibly today, I'm going to fabricate and silver-braze together that little (again) wiz-bang, and the lead-solder it to the male tube's ferrule (just as with the Jinbao and Rudy)...

...but (before that) I first want to get the tapered tube "perfect", buff it out, solder it to the instrument, and brace it to the #1 slide outside slide tube.

Just as with any such "project", there's a seemingly endless list of stupid crap to do. When Wade shows his pictures, each one of them represents having done "a whole bunch of stuff". It's difficult (for me, anyway) to get in the proper mood to perfectly execute an endless list of tedium.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:31 pm

OK...

One of the reasons that I wanted to get this transition branch (from the valveset to the bell) built first, is because I knew it would be particularly tedious, would require critical angles, and would require some very specific geometry.

I've finished with it. The section is nicely tapered (again: from .689" bore to .768" bore), I have installed both needed brass reinforcement strips on it (top and bottom) and and fabricated, aligned, and installed the interlocking device to connect it to the bell section.

Again, I don't do projects (only repairs, and maximum one day) like this for others, because I couldn't charge for the time and - even if I could - I have so many projects of my own that I've not tackled, that - when I find a little bit of time - I choose (again) to tackle my own projects...

...so here are some pictures of this piece. I'm sure I spent at least five hours fabricating all of this, and yeah, I had to buy most of the raw materials (well...the interlocking devise was originally just little chunks of brass rod, but whatever) with which I fabricated it.

Image
Image
Image
Image
proof (i.e. NO ENGRAVING) that I really do have a brand-new Jb bell section, and I'm not robbing the one off my existing cimbasso. I'm LOOKING AT my other cimbasso, obviously, but am NOT robbing parts from it. Again, my hope is to be pleased with this cimbasso, and to - once this German-valveset cimbasso is completed - be able to SELL my Jinbao cimbasso (complete, and made to work as well as I can possibly manage).
Image
Here's the transition piece mounted to the bell, and held at a right angle to the ground, demonstrating the correct angle of the bell section when installed.
Image
Here's the interlocking device attached to the bell section:
Image
close-up of the same:
Image
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby Rivercity Tuba » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:00 am

This build should be very interesting. Joe's ideas on bore size make so much sense. Not to mention, Joe is a master at what he does. Thanks for sharing this, can't wait to see how it turns out!
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:06 pm

The TubeNet Freak Jury wrote:Hey bloke, we don't wanna see no stupid pictures of some curved piece of crap. Show us the MONEY PICS !!!


Alright, ALRIGHT already !!! :roll:

Here. I mounted the curved-piece-of-crap transition piece (that took five friggin' hours to make), and now, it's BEGINNING to look a look like a cimbasso...so here are some less-stupid pictures:

Image
Image
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Image

This is all I'm going for today. I have a subscription concert this weekend, the reading rehearsal is tonight, and I need to (having been sick) need to see if I can play the tuba well enough to fake my way through the music. That having been said "having it look a whole lot more like the finished product" is encouraging, and it's good that I got this done today.

:arrow: I DID - today - find some junk (in one of Mrs. bloke's bass clarinet parts drawers) that I might be able to use for the floor peg mounting system, and "having stuff" is a huge part of being able to "do stuff".
Last edited by bloke on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby Rivercity Tuba » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Fantastical!
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby the elephant » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Good thread; reading with interest...
I got nothin'…
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:06 pm

There will probably be a delay in mounting the mouthpipe/tuning slide portion.
The only tubes that were easily available to me in the desired bore sizes (without waiting forever for Buffet to send them) are brass, and I would like to get them heavily nickel plated to match the appearance of the nickel silver tubes on the rest of the instrument.
Further, the tubes that Buffet would eventually have would be (metric) .650" bore, and my preference (main tuning slide small side) was .658"...not much different but (yeah), different. When I get them nickel plated, I'm going to temporarily lead solder little squares of sheet brass over the ends of the tubes. This will eliminate any plating crap getting inside the tubes...so I'll probably make those tubes just a hair too long, which will allow me to trim "funky-looking" ends off the slide tubes where those squares of sheet brass will have been soldered in place.

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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby roweenie » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:56 pm

Very interesting - thank you for sharing this build with us.

(I've had a secret theory that the cimbasso needs a smaller bore valve section than what is customarily available. Hopefully, your impetus to tackle this will give me the courage to follow suit.... :tuba: )

I have a question about the mouthpipe (or should I wait till you get to that point?)
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:33 am

The mouthpipe taper (which will begin pretty small - with a small/"bass trombone" shank) is only going to realize a .656" bore, and then the wide tuning slide crook will expand from .656" to .689", .689" being the bore of the valveset.

' not rocket science.

=========================================
I like the sound - in general - of the Jb knock-off of the Rudy.
A couple of Rudy owners have told me that Jb bell sections (as well as bolting right up to their Rudy's) sound better on their Rudy's than their original bell sections.
I also like the manageable intonation of the Jb knock-off of the Rudy.
I just don't like the lack of resistance (really large .728" bore) nor the crappy Jb rotors/linkage.

Most of the really pricey European-made cimbassos (which - due to their pricing, likely, aren't stocked by any USA outlets) seem to offer more conservative bore sizes.

I may (??) do some more work on the thing today. It's rainy, I don't want to waste the day away on the web or watching TV, and our dress rehearsal was last night...so I don't have to get my butt out of the house (for the concert) until around dinner time.

I do seem to be lacking enough of that reinforcing rib material (such as I used on the top/bottom of that curved bell-connecting branch) for the upper/curved end of the mouthpipe. I'm only seeing one more strip of that stuff laying around...though (possibly?) I could salvage a piece of that stuff off a sousaphone gooseneck (one that's toast). I don't have any junk USA-baritones laying around (which featured strips of that stuff along the centers of their bottom bows).

...and (the only other really difficult thing...at least for an old bloke) I may (??) fabricate the tuning slide crook today.

I just don't want this project to drag on forever, particularly as it's just not that involved.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby roweenie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:59 pm

Fascinating thread - - - -

What will the length of the mouthpipe be, approximately, and will it be detachable, or fixed? Will it be "tuba-like", or will it have some sort of trombone venturi feature?

I previously built (now scrapped, valve set used elsewhere) a cimbasso utilizing a .689 King piston valve set, and I suspect (although I'm not really 100% certain) what I didn't like about it (harder to fill than an E flat tuba of a similar size) was due to the mouthpipe design.

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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Just look at a Rudy or a Jinbao.
Other than a different #3 wrap (see my very first picture in my very first post, above) and the smaller overall bore taper previous to the bell, everything will be the same size/shape.

Image

If got past one more hurdle today...another critical part: the wide main tuning slide bow, which (rather than .728" cylindrical like the Rudy and Jb) is tapered from .656" bore to .689" bore.

Here is the Jb main slide (.728" cylindrical crook) next to the crook I made today (.656" - .689")
It ain't pretty, yet...but that's just a bit of tippy-tapping and buffing.

Image

...and (though the l-o-n-g tuning slide tubes aren't cut nor mounted yet, here's the angle of the main tuning slide, as it will allow the (mostly straight, except for its small end) to worm it's way up through the valveset. This is a very similar angle as that the the Rudy/Jb. I'm stealing their design and stealing their bell section...but making the rest of it the-same-but-smaller. Were I to come up with my own unique design (and yeah, I have a King 1241 valveset sitting around here as well), it would take longer, and I'm not too much into "take longer".

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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:38 pm

There probably won't be pictures here for a while...
I am going to fabricate the main tuning slide (inside/outside) as well as the #4 circuit and slide, but (as mentioned previously) once that's done, I'm sending outside slide tubes off to Anderson to get them double nickel plated - in order cosmetically match the rest of the instrument.

The mouthpipe tube is going to be extremely easy to fabricate, so no worries there.

Once all the mess (listed above) is executed and installed, about all the will remain will be bracing the small end of the mouthpipe (curved) to the curved valveset-to-bell transition piece (Rudy doesn't do this, but Jb does, and it's a good idea)...and the #1 tuning slide thumb trigger (pro'lly a couple of hours, but not complicated).

...so if (??) it ends up playing better (easier) than a Rudy, but has rotors/linkage that work as reliably as B&S, who would buy a John Packer copy of my thing, here, for $4500...?? :lol:
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby roweenie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:52 pm

So, where does the mouthpipe taper end, and the cylindrical tubing begin (at the nickel-silver tubing)?

(Forgive me for such obvious questions, but believe it or not, I've never held one in my hands.... :oops: )
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:15 pm

That's correct. The tuning slide tubes are (will be) crazy long.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:19 pm

Are you going to add hand rests? (My biggest complaint about the Chinese cimbasso.)
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby roweenie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:14 pm

bloke wrote:That's correct. The tuning slide tubes are (will be) crazy long.


Thanks for that info - the tapered part on the one I built pictured above was VERY short (about 6"), and I think response suffered as a result of it (too much cylindrical tubing, not enough tapered tubing). It felt as though it was nearly impossible for me to fill it with a bright cimbasso-like" sound. I was trying to make it adjustable and removable, which I think was asking for too much... :(

I'm assuming that the bit that bends before the receiver is not removable or adjustable?

It seems to me that rotary valves make the construction much more straight-forward.
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Re: bloke's German valveset cimbasso project has begun

Postby bloke » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:42 am

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:That's correct. The tuning slide tubes are (will be) crazy long.


Thanks for that info - the tapered part on the one I built pictured above was VERY short (about 6"), and I think response suffered as a result of it (too much cylindrical tubing, not enough tapered tubing). It felt as though it was nearly impossible for me to fill it with a bright cimbasso-like" sound. I was trying to make it adjustable and removable, which I think was asking for too much... :(

I'm assuming that the bit that bends before the receiver is not removable or adjustable?

It seems to me that rotary valves make the construction much more straight-forward.


Again, from a distance (particularly since it will use a Jinbao bell section) most people are going to think it's a Jinbao knock-off of a Rudy...but none of the rest of the parts are interchangeable with (nor the same bore sizes as) Jinbao/Rudy Meinl.

In the Rudy picture, the mouthpipe (long) probably tapers from a .550" bore to a .728" bore (not exact...instrument/calipers out in the barn).

My mouthpipe probably tapers from .500" to .656" (not exact...instrument/calipers out in the barn).
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