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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby bisontuba » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:39 am

Wade-
Is the elipse in the rotors the same in old vrs new or is there some difference ( esp the 'depth')? Also, is the weight the same? I wonder if the brass composition is the same in old / new rotors.....
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:17 am

bisontuba wrote:Wade-
Is the elipse in the rotors the same in old vrs new or is there some difference ( esp the 'depth')? Also, is the weight the same? I wonder if the brass composition is the same in old / new rotors.....


Can you clarify what you mean by "elipse"? Not sure I'm getting what you mean, Mark.

The new rotors are different so that the parts are not interchangeable. AND — within the two types of new ones I have here there is a further alteration to the internal measurements and they are not even close to being interchangeable. The most recent version is pretty good, and I like it. The previous "new" design is the heavy feeling one. In both cases the rotor spindles (both ends) are fatter (which is a huge improvement for wear but might be the source of the slower feeling) and the top one is longer. The casings are a bit taller than the old style and the bearing sticks out of the top a bit more, and this adds up to a few millimeters of added length to the top bearing surfaces.

Also, on my five new valves the bearings are nickel silver, which is also very nice for wear. Perhaps this also contributes to the feeling that I like less: In slide tubes, Yellow Brass (YB) to YB (to me) feels the best, but wears and bends the most easily over time when such thin tubing is used. Nickel Silver (NS) is by far a stronger choice, and is a lot more difficult to dent, bend or ovalize over years of use, but it has the worst feel to the pull and when the grease dries out it can bind up more than YB/YB. The best combination seems to be the one that Miraphone has decided to use for most horns, and that is NS outer tubes and YB inner tubes. It lasts a long time and has a pull that is in between and that is less likely to freeze in place when the grease turns into dry crap.

So perhaps this decision to make slides this way lead to them doing the same with the valve bearings? It seems to make more friction even when very light oils are used. It could also be that these are simply not run in yet. I don't know. It is fun to think about these things, though.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby bisontuba » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:18 pm

Elipse-- the two 'ports' of an actual rotor....
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:48 pm

The elipse measures to be the same, but it occurs at a slightly different height inside the rotor casing. These seem to be unchanged, and the outer measurements are verrrrry close. At the "coin" (the soldered-on decorative top plate) the new ones seem to be about .01" larger, but this could be due to all the buffing done over the years to the old valves, whereas my new ones were unfinished from the factory. The internal taper and size of the rotor outer wall/cashing inner wall and the thickness and length of the spindles are the chief differences.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:15 pm

It was too cold and wet to work outside today, especially since the rain was to persist for another 14 or so hours and the temp was 38º dropping to 28º by dusk. Snow was expected from 8:00 to 10:00 tonight.

No freaking way I was going to sit out in the wet, freezing carport and work to meet my artificially imposed deadline of this Saturday to finish up the CC.

I did some busy work with all the remaining old Mirafone valves, seeing what was actually wrong with them and trying to right those things.

What ended up happening was that I discovered that of the seven I have left two were the craptastic, unrepairable-without-a-crapload-of-replating valves I had previously diagnosed as junk. One that I had thought was actually pretty good (but that got passed over for the BBb valve section) was the 1st from the CC. No, it leaks some and the action, once THOROUGHLY cleaned and dried was rough. The bearing faces that touch on the rear side both look like someone with a screwdriver had pried between them over and again with a small screwdriver to get them apart. When the rear cap is removed and you press the top spindle into the valve casing the action is rough as hell. It is terrible. I think I can smooth that well enough, but it won't matter since the adjustment screw MUST be way in to keep the top bearing fully engaged. So it can be made usable, but not for anything I would want if for. I can probably sell it very inexpensively once the leak has been corrected and the action make nicer. I have have to do some lathe work to the rear plate, but I am not good at that sort of thing. Yet. 8)

So the not-ready-for-primetime valve and the two paperweights left me with four Mirafone valves and then I still have the brand new Miraphone valve.

This made me sit up and take note that this could be another complete section of five rotors. And after a lot of cleaning and putzing around I have four normal valves and a 3/4 valve for 5th that is in great shape. All the actions are smooth, two are already vented and swaged. So I have to swage three and then vent the casings. Once that has been done I have to dig up two cork plates and screws, and I need stop arms and screw for all five. I also have to solder on the adapter for the 5th valve port that should point upwards, since this one points to the side like all the other slide ports.

Once all has been fully repaired and assembled I will bag it up for storage for my next project, which I will probably not live to see at the rate I am progressing, heh, heh…

So we have the new valves, the good old valves and the actually also pretty darned good old valves, leaving me a clinker and two VSOs.

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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:13 pm

Lunch break! Here is where I am at this moment…

The bell is off (uh, thank you, Captain Obvious) and you can see in these shots all the hundreds of pings, dents and flat areas that the dent machine should iron out very nicely. I want to preserve the original Kranz if I can, so I have to whomp out the rim wire back to flat and as round as I can manage with my rawhide mallet. Then I will Fast Eddie the flare to the edge. I want to avoid using the dent machine in this area because I am better with my Fast Eddie on the flare.
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Here are some shots of the bugle branches/4th slide, showing that I got most of the decades of gunk off with a quickie polish (using a toothbrush and an old teeshirt) of the inner areas that are normally inaccessible without great effort. Most of the lacquer that was left came off on the first try with the new "legal" (but nowhere near as good as the old stuff) stripper, but there are several long stretches where it was useless, and this second application is being allowed to "cook" for an hour. I am sure the lacquer will be no different when I go back outside, though. Anyway, there is a single container of Aircraft Remover left in all of Yazoo County and I hid that mother at AutoZone yesterday. I will go pick it up tomorrow and use it in a miserly manner until it is gone forever. <sigh>
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:29 pm

Today I used my dent machine to remove the tin foil-looking crap all over this bell. I smoothed and rounded out from the end to just above the leadpipe. Then I did the Fast Eddie thing from the flare to about eight inches in from the edge.

After the first pass I went out back and spent just about an hour with my rawhide mallet, some dent hammers and a large burnisher going around and around trying to flatten and LEVEL the dang wire, but this is an old one and *might* be steel rather than nickel silver or brass. I truly don't know, but the one from the BBb bell was rusted (RUST, not "corrosion") and it cleaned up just like steel. It also insisted on clinging to its misshapenness, which copper alloy wires don't do quite so badly. The CC's wire is acting in *exactly* the same manner. (That is probably a good thing since these two horns were built about six months apart.)

So it was the typical nonsense for this job. You flatten the rim. You level the rim. You then un-taco the rim. You level it again. You flatten it once again, etc. I got it where I am "happy enough" but not truly happy; it will never look new because of the ratty edge of the Kranz as well as a lot of damage to the bell flare in general, much of it from the inside that pushed through the brass and into the nickel silver.

You can tap and burnish these "double dings" down some, but it will never again look good there unless you remove the Kranz and fix the bell, then install a NEW Kranz. I have one but am not yet ready to try and install it. Perhaps this summer? I don't know.

I was really trying to salvage the old one, but there is some cracking and splitting at the garland's edge where it wraps around from the side to the top. I am keeping it for now, but I have the nicely engraved, brand new one if I change my mind later.

Anyway, I spent a long time screwing with the bell rim. While doing that I alternated between that task and then correcting stuff with the Fast Eddie.
As I said, it is more level than it was, it is pretty flat, it won't want to tip over when on the bell, and it looks a lot better. So, while not *excited* about this, it is still very pleasing to me, and that is all that really counts, I suppose.

After all this I buffed and burnished the whole exterior and the first three inches of the inside of the flare. Now I can go back and work the upper half of the stack on the dent machine. Once that is complete and it all looks pretty good I will then do the whole bell again, but very slowly and great anal retentiveness. Then it can go back onto the bugle.

The below pics show where I am right now at lunchtime. After food and a break I will put the bell back in the Z-60 Torture Chamber to finish un-crinkling the the stack. Perhaps I will have it installed tonight with the new version of the bell-to-top-bow brace.

About half of the Kranz looks pretty darned good, IMO, and that is pretty much the whole engraved area that most people look at. However, there is a LOT of deep gouging from the other side that I worked on for some time, and you can see one of the three patches in the next photo. Disappointing, but hey, this baby has been cranking out tunes since I was six years old. New is great, but original is better in this case.
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Compared with the photos from yesterday you can see that most of the flaws in the lower half have been removed, but dang, LOOK at all the crap between the leadpipe and the bell flare!
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:42 pm

Not done. I will finish tomorrow. My back hurts and my brain is fried. Too much going on. So this is my stopping point. I will do another pass at the top half and work on the flare a bit more tomorrow. Then it goes back on the horn.

Enjoy your Friday the 13th Night. HAHAHA!!!

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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby bloke » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:18 pm

It looks :arrow: really nice. 8)

Z-60 ends-of-strokes marks (dentlets) are the most tedious to remove, as there end up being more of those than of original dents. :roll:

You are correct: Those rings are steel. For my silver one, I tap-tap-tap-tapped the top fold of the kranz down as flat/close/tightly against it as I could manage (hoping to minimize chemical bleed-out after plating). There was still a tiny bit of plating chemical bleed, but not much. Dan O. texts me ("shop talk") sometimes, and described plating an old 186 as "risky" (which I knew good and well). I think I lucked out, but also did everything I could to minimize bad luck.

I'm delighted that you're going to have these instruments.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby roughrider » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:44 pm

Looks terrific!!
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:19 pm

Four more pics before I hit the shower and put on the monkey suit for tonight. I would *really* like to call this done. I do not intend to lacquer this horn. I want it buffed up nicely and then I will polish it with this goofy museum antiquing paste that *apparently* will put a dark patina on the brass before I can get my nasty fingerprints or any water spots on the horn. Once this is done I will keep it wiped down with Pledge.

Well, that's the plan, at least. I have to test this stuff, but it works great on a couple of the brass instruments in our orchestra, so I want to try it on something as large as a tuba. Either way, the flaws you see will not really ever be visible, but the misshapen bell throat will bug me forever. I might go back and work that out more carefully, but I have a rather big gig tonight (that will pay for all my 190 parts for the Holton 345 project by itself, thankfully) and I need to get away from the nasty tools and chemicals and buffing dirt. So this is where I stop for today. If I do more to this it will not really make that much of a difference. It looks fantastic compared with how it looked last year at this time. I am more or less happy with this bell right now; it makes me smile. And, to be completely honest, I am not really sure I can get the last stuff out of the bell; my skill set with the dent machine grows every day, but it is still not that hot at this time.

The light lines on the bell are now very straight.
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What a classic, humble logo. Today's logo does nothing for me; It is machine engraved. This little logo was hammered into existence by some German guy in 1971, by hand, line by line, dot by dot. It is the builder's way of anonymously signing his work, proclaiming "I was here." I wish I could buy that guy a beer.
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The bottom end of the bell stack came out so well yesterday, but the upper half made me sort of pissed off after all that work. Today I burned 45 minutes working from the beginning of the flare down to the leadpipe and it paid off. I am happy with the results in this area.
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Those "scratches" in the SW quadrant of the rim were actually DEEP dents punched by something like a folding stand leg. They made large bulges in the garland on the other side. I did the best I could, but the garland is still a little wavy right there, and the punches are now shallow gouges in the metal that won't go away. I tried to get rid of them, but the garland would have to have come off to do this correctly. I am surprised that I missed the misshapenness of the NE quadrant of the bell throat. The throat was really bad when I started and it took my slow *** some real time to get it to this point. I will go back and use a dent roller to slowly and carefully make sure this looks better. It is okay now, but it does not look the way is should. The whole bell stack was nearly octagonal all the way from one end to the other. I am happy that it is more or less round now.
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Last edited by the elephant on Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby TubaNerd88 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:32 pm

Looks great, Wade! I can't wait to see the finished product.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:15 pm

For various reasons I had to work on the BBb 186 today. I decided to finally attempt to install the Kranz. I learned a lot from all the mistakes I made and all the rednecking I had to do to get around the issues with that bell. It took me five hours to get two thirds of the way through this. :oops: :oops: :oops:

I am a quick study and I have a page and a half of very specific notes for when I do this to the CC (er… *IF*). The problems will not be anywhere near so bad as what was up with this old BBb bell. I am guessing that one will take me about an hour to 90 minutes to do now. Great experience. I won't lie to you and say that nothing got thrown across the yard and that no curses and oaths were not hurled at the bell. However, what I have completed looks very good, and the part I have not yet gotten too looks like dog poo.

I have a quintet recital about two hours south and east of me tomorrow, and it starts at noon. So my chances of getting in any work tomorrow are just about zero. But I am off Friday… :mrgreen:

I have annealed the throat and flare to make it easier to reshape this section as I overdid it with the dent machine and thinned the edge too much, making too much surface area for the space it had to live in. Whoopsie… Once annealed and worked for about an hour to get things back to the shape then needed to be in I marked my line to trim off the extra metal that the dent machine had pushed on downstream into the flare.
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You can better see how more work to one side pushes more metal toward the flare edge than on the side that needed less attention.
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After two hellish hours of intense learning (read: flailing around like a fish out of water) so that I could finally install the bell into the freaking garland, as well as all the misadventures I had with the bronze wire during this I *finally* got that sucker fitted. Note that the work I did to the annealed throat and flare allowed me to correct the "pancaking" I had done to the bell; the angle of the rim and the Kranz were not even in the same ballpark, before. Now it fits very well.
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There's that sexy bell gusset…
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I had the expected issues with gapping as I soldered down the edge of the Kranz to the bell. It was slow work, but I have all the gaps fully and neatly closed. There is still some solder cleanup to do, but it was down to 36º out in the carport and my hands were becoming useless. Friday will see all this cleaned up and the last part of this (the edge inside the bell) will be addressed.

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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:01 pm

Wow, but have I been BUSY! I have missed out on about five great days to work outside due to gigs. When I was home I was either very sick or it was pouring rain from dawn to dusk, so I have not done anything since my last post. But I have two more gigs today and THEN I AM DONE for this year! I know I will have four good days in a row starting tomorrow, so I can get some stuff done.

Have a merry Christmas. See you again soon!
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby roughrider » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:46 pm

We eagerly await your further pictures and text as you continue this epic project!
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:20 pm

Upon close, side-by-side inspection I am not too sure the BBb can be cut to CC with any sort of real success without a lot of alteration that goes beyond re-tapering the ends of tubes so they fit.

I have a lot of new ideas about how the CC was made into such a successful "shortened BBb" when the Alexander 163 BBb-to-CC conversion was less successful.

Miraphone spent money and time on R&D, firstly. (Well, DUH.)

But mainly I think I might have stumbled onto something here. I have been measuring the internal volumes of some of the BBb and CC parts, and I have also made some physical observations.

You have to remember that Miraphone had to try and keep the same depth of tone of the BBb horn. The CC and BBb Alex 163 tubas are NOT the same in that regard. The CC sounds really fine, but the BBb, played by the same player in the same rehearsal in the same hall (just swapping one horn for the other for different runs through sections of music) has a more deep and organ-like tone. [You do not really note this difference if you play both when the other horn is not present, and not many Alex players own or have access to both the BBb and CC versions, so I think this largely goes unnoticed by most.]

I have observed this in really good examples of older CC and BBb 186 tubas, but it is much less noticeable. When I was much younger I just chalked it up to the fact that the CC weighed less. I never thought about it after that.

I think Miraphone was able to minimize this by repapering the horn from the large end of the top bow to the MTS by first making the top bow fatter in one key place, and then taper down faster. Each internal branch is fatter on the CC, and the taper at the larger body ferrules if pretty easily visible. On the BBb these same ferrules taper, but only like a mm or two over like two and a half inches - they are nearly straight. On the CC one of the large body ferrules if obviously for the BBb but has had the small end crammed into a shrinker or a draw ring or some such. The last 3/8" is visibly crimped down to fit over the next branch. The single largest difference is the pretzel (5th branch) which is very different in three ways from the BBb part. The BBb pretzel is thinner. The large end is a good bit smaller, it is shorter, but not by much, it is nearly an inch wider (meaning that it travels an inch farther toward the small side of the bottom bow before curling back up to the MTS. And the angle and curvature of the tail end are very different. I am not sure I can cut and bend my BBb pretzel to work on a CC. And if I buy the CC pretzel it WILL NOT FIT with the nest branch or its ferrule - no way, no how. They are that different.

My idea is to try and see what you get if you chop a BBb to play in C using only the BBb parts. I will go ahead and try this. However, I am pretty sure it will turn out to be a bowser, pitch-wise. If it plays well in other regards I will then purchase the three inner branches and needed ferrules and make a "good" CC. But I feel compelled to try chopping the pretzel and tapering the ends of what I have so I can know just how bad it will be.

:mrgreen: :lol: 8)

I really need to get back to my CC, but I needed some time away from that horn as I have been putting myself under self-imposed deadlines and needless pressure when I need an open schedule that allows me to bog down all I want on details, just to learn some acoustical information. So that means I can try to catch up on the BBb-cum-CC "test mule" 186. I am almost positive that if I am careful with the bell and outer branches that the CC inner branches from Miraphone will make a great tuba for me. However, I think they are tuned at 442 now by default, so perhaps these will only make things worse? Maybe I need to hit up Wessex for these same parts for a lot less money? Then I could afford to mess around with them. I will have to carefully measure branches 3, 4 and 5 and see how they differ from my old, 440 186. Hmm. More crap to delay me. Oh, well. I love learning about this stuff. Instrument design is more interesting to me than instrument repair or manufacturing.

I am heading out back soon. I hope to have some pics later tonight, but no promises.

Here is my CC bugle as of right now. I was really depressed the other day when I went out to work, so I sunk myself into things pretty deeply and ended up taking it all apart one piece at a time to fix stuff I could not get to when it was assembled. I am an idiot. However, the parts look really nice, now. Of course, I only took a pic of them in their storage box. Why? As I said: I am an idiot.
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Here is the BBb top bow in all its glory. I can't wait to tackle that mess. :roll: I have done the bulk of the rough dent work, but have much fine work left to do. Then I have these horrible cracks to clean up and prep for silver soldering. I think it will end up being a very good part in the end. Other than these two cracks the whole bow is now in excellent condition and soon will look very nice.
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For some reason (the guard plate, perhaps?) the part beneath the guard did not crack. But the sections outside that protected zone suffered greatly. I have to remove all that soft solder from near the cracks or the silver solder won't adhere or flow correctly. That is paper thin stuff, so I have to think this one out. At least the hole has some bits of brass folded to the sides that might be savable to close the hole to become more of a set of spider cracks, which is a lot easier to repair. And this horn is not meant to be a looker. If I get pissed off enough I will just patch these. I am really good at making and installing nice looking patches. I just hate them and greatly prefer to see cracks cleaned up and sealed permanently.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:32 pm

Okay, so all I got done today was close-but-no-cigar dent work and a two hour "Discovery Time" session with one of my Z-60 attachments I have never used before. It was still in the plastic and bubble wrap after ten years camping out in the shop. After two hours I finally decided that I needed to purchase two attachments in order to make the machine do what I need it to do.

No time for that, so I will get these attachments later. Today I went ahead and rednecked it. I *hate* doing this sort of work, too. In the end the results were okay. I will take them. It just sucks to have a part completely removed from the horn and you STILL cannot get to the dents. I have the Ferree's arm for that but no heads. Oh well — live and learn.

I managed to make a terrible error with the incorrect magnet (my only one right now) that just mangled the inside curve of the bottom bow. I figured out a way to fix that and also get rid of most of the scratches. I also managed to get out the deeply punched in section from where the lower strap hook was slammed into something very hard. It was about a quarter inch deep and 1.25" long.

Note that none of this is "the end" and that I plan on doing better dent work (that is, accessible dent work — I am not pulling this horn apart again!) after I can get the right magnet and the two dent machine heads and one arm that I am still lacking (because I do not plan ahead). The bottom bow still looks rather meh, but it is far better than it was, and I am happy with that. But I still want to try to get the rest of that mess out.

So here are the bottom bow, top bow and inner branches. I will be assembling the bugle and bell tomorrow. I decided to wait on replacing the bell garland until I am fully happy with what I am doing with the BBb bell. I can always remove the bell on the CC horn without too much hassle, so whatever.
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:37 pm

I am working on the BBb today to take advantage of the CC being apart.

I trimmed inner branches 3 and 4, but 5 (the pretzel) will require a lot of surgery to make it work. I might just buy the real CC 5th branch and ferrule because I am not certain that I can make the BBb one fit into the tighter space of the CC pretzel.
All ferrules and tube ends have been nicely finished and tapered to happily live together from now until this horn is truly scrapped for parts. Some of the BBb and CC branches are sightly wider or more narrow but it all seems to line up as a unit.

This afternoon I will measure, mark, check (and check again) the top and bottom bows prior to cutting them to length. Then I will have a heck of a time tapering the big end of the 3rd branch to fit the ferrule, which I won't do now. I do not believe I can make ferrule 3 flare out enough to fit the end of the top bow. I probably will be forced to purchase some parts. I might just make a temporary one from sheet brass so I can check out what the results of my hacking ended up being.

Anyway, the inner branches are as done at I can get them. I need braces now. The bell and outer branches will be trussed up together by tonight. Whether I can join the inner with the outer at ferrule 3 remains to be seen; but so far, so good!

The CC inner branch cluster are the buffed tubes. The BBb are the matte finish set, and they are only press fit right now. (Yeah, the large ferrule was falling off in the first photo, so it looks really long; in the second pic it looks correct.) You can see how much wider the BBb 5th branch is and I think where I want to cut it might work. I have to work some stuff out, though.

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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby the elephant » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:04 pm

I have been having family emergencies constantly this past week and a half, so my work has been really spotty, both in quality and in quantity. Sorry. It is what it is.

Anyway, I managed to cut and fit the inner branches (more or less) as described above. I then went out and cut the two large bows and did a lot of PITA hurts-the-hands type work to re-taper the second ferrule much larger on the one end and a bit smaller on the other. I had to do a ton of expanding to the top bow to get it to mate up with the bottom bow end and to fit the ferrule. They are close.

The ferrule from the top bow to the interior of the wrap is close.

Everything is close.

I am cold AF and am quitting so I can get back to my little family of wife and cats and try to meet their needs as best I can.

More later.

The parts are press fit and misaligned a lot. I just wanted to get the damned photo before I took my shower. But if you look you can see the initial expansion of the top bow to match the bottom bow, and the tapering I have done to the ferrule. Some careful, slow work with the dent machine and all that should look pretty good.
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the elephant
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Re: Dueling 186s - Twin Restorations

Postby bloke » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:40 pm

When you eventually get to the point where everything is precisely as you wish it to be, you tack things together with improvised braces, and measure the spans of places you wish to brace...
...send pictures to Christian, and ask him for braces.
He is willing to make solid "Miraphone" braces for you - with spans to the portion of a mm - and for not-unaffordable prices. 8)
(I'd personally rather pay his reasonable prices than monkey around with existing braces - altering them...or making lookalikes from scratch.)
I believe you are of the same mindset, as you've chosen new rotors over having someone "rebuild" worn ones.

I can't help but wonder (if some bows possibly end up a bit fatter than with the C version), if you might end up with a "186.5" C...leaning towards a 188-ish type of instrument.

A former teacher had an old C that sounded more "mellow" (for lack of a better word) that any other 186 C I'd ever played...and I wondered if they had actually cut down B-flat bows to make that instrument. It wasn't the most remarkably in-tune C 186 I'd ever played, but not unmanageable...a pleasing sound.

I have three projects which I've laid aside due to "semi-nightmare" kranz issues.
You've given me the inspiration (perhaps: courage...??) to pick them back up and mess with them. I admire your fast learning curve - messing with them.
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