186 or 184?

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:39 am

This appears to be a 186 from the size of the bottom bow, but it's really hard to tell. Is there a definitive way to tell the difference? A key question to ask the seller? My 184 and case weigh in a 33.5 lbs with no mp or accessories. He says about 35 lbs. which gives me hope. I'm looking for a 184 valveset by the way.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1

MikeS · Post by **MikeS** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:48 am

I'd ask the seller to measure the bell. 184's are 14.5", early 186's were 16.5" and later 186's are 17.25". The bell as shown in the photos looks like it should still be pretty true to size.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:22 am

MikeS wrote:I'd ask the seller

I was hoping to find a way without asking the seller. They usually don't respond as well as tubenetters. If I can get a good photo I can usually tell from the wrap, but these are not good pictures. Does anyone happen to know what a 186 and stock case weigh? I would guess the horn should be about 2 lbs and the case 4 lbs heavier than the 184.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:09 am

Go ahead and ask that seller. I don't think she knows lots about tubas but she will answer questions. I bought my tuba from her.

Not sure if the serial number can tell you anything but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Jeff

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:04 pm

The important issue is the bore size, in any case. What if it's a 184 with a bore smaller than yours? What if it IS a 186? If you're looking to add valves to yours, a duo bore might not be a bad thing. New Frankenhorn? Only you know, but if it makes any difference, ask them to get a slide to someone who can and check the bore.

That's the only thing that makes a difference for the valves, anyway. How would you know if it's been modified before now?

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:42 pm

windshieldbug wrote:That's the only thing that makes a difference for the valves, anyway. How would you know if it's been modified before now?

Good point. Very good point. I am thinking about a 5th valve to solve an intonation problem. It's a pretty expensive alternative to pulling 1st though. If I can't find some cheap parts I'm not going to have it done. My 184 has "29" stamped on the valve casings. That might be the inner diameter of the casing. Wonder what is stamped on a 186? Maybe the seller will respond or the price will get out of sight.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:45 pm

You guys are good if you can tell what's what on this horn!

There's not even a photo of the complete instrument--just shots here and there. I do note that the bottom bow is lacking a keel, but that's about all I can tell--and I've got a 186 and a 184 sitting in front of me here.

If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one or the other, I'd say 184, but given that there's no shot of the plumbing, it could even be a 183.

Ask for more photos.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:09 pm

tbn.al wrote:I am thinking about a 5th valve to solve an intonation problem. It's a pretty expensive alternative to pulling 1st though. If I can't find some cheap parts I'm not going to have it done. My 184 has "29" stamped on the valve casings. That might be the inner diameter of the casing

My experience has been that if a number is stamped on the valves of ANY horn, it's just used during the build process to match those valves to those casings. I'm not sure it'll tell you much. I've got horns with all manner of numbers on the casings.

FWIW, my 184 has an 18mm bore.

But, if it IS a 186, (and that's what it looks most like to me, too) might not be a bad thing. Lots of manufacturers use a larger 5th valve after the main valve block, but only you know what interval you want where.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:39 pm

tbn.al wrote:.... My 184 has "29" stamped on the valve casings. That might be the inner diameter of the casing...

All that '29' means is that the valveset number is 29 in a series of them. They may have built a batch of 30 or them (or whatever). I don't ever recall seeing a number higher that 30 or so. I don't recall ever seeing a number higher than 30 or any numbers with single-digits. It's just a factory reference number.

MikeS · Post by **MikeS** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:40 pm

I did an "Ask the Seller" on the bell size and they responded quite promptly.

"the bell is aprx.16.5 inches accross total length of horn is about 40 inches it is about 19 inches in width"

So it looks like to be a 186.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:36 pm

MikeS wrote:I did an "Ask the Seller" on the bell size and they responded quite promptly.

"the bell is aprx.16.5 inches accross total length of horn is about 40 inches it is about 19 inches in width"

So it looks like to be a 186.

Yup, just shows to go ya how photos can be phoolers.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:23 pm

Thanks guys. I never did get an answer back. I use a different email address for ebay and it must be down or something. A 186 I don't need and the price is moving right on up there anyway.

I am thinking 2 different ways on a possible 5th valve. Flat whole step in the leadpipe or 2 whole step after the 4th. Right now I'm just thinking......and counting my pennies.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:47 am

Since the 1st slide on a 184 is so accessable, i jusr reach over and do that with the left arm. It gets more complicated with adding a 5th valve, also either thumb action or left hand action.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:02 am

I'm arthritic and my left shoulder is killing me from the arm position necessary to pull the 1st valve slide. Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned at all. Maybe a kicker on the first slide would be an alternative to the 5th valve. My main concern with a leadpipe insertion like the 184 5V CC is that I would have to blow through another valve all the time. My 184 4V is not the most free blowing horn anyway. But I love the sound it makes and other than the sharp 12 combo it is spot on.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:07 am

No alternates to help? A long 3 is often a good sharp 12 solution. I use my 4 waaaaay out (and lots of possibilities there), but I have to agree, my 184 has the best intonation of any of my horns.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:51 pm

No any alternates that work for my setup. I tune 3 so it is right on for 23 with 2 out about an inch. Then 3 is too flat for a 12 alternate. I guess the only ready solution is ibuprofen before and after. The horn plays so good right now that I hate to think about adding valves. I might really screw it up.