Buescher Eb thoughts?

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:12 am

Does anyone have any experience with this model? Would it be a good choice for someone looking to pick up an Eb for community band type playing? (no, not me).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tuba-5-4-size-Eb-4- ... dZViewItem

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:59 am

I remember Bloke commenting on the pitch of a Buescher Eb once. I hope he pokes his head in here and makes a comment before the Buescher collector bids the price up to $7000.

Yes, I bet the tuning slide is there for a reason.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Wed May 10, 2006 4:49 pm

Like all monster EEb tubas, the intonation is going to be "challenging".

Even the scales on the small Buescher E-flats are dismal.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Thu May 11, 2006 9:20 pm

bloke wrote:"but both of those are, imo, going to waste glued to that particular bugle."

OK, I'll bite.... What is wrong with the bugle on this tuba? What characteristics or design flaws make it "not" good?

(Just curious...)

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:15 am

bloke wrote: Your problem is that you do not understand the Science of Acoustics. If you had been a life-long student of Acoustics, you would know that the design flaws of the bugle on this tuba primarily are found in the fact that it sucks.

bloke "If I (or anyone) knew any more about it than that, they would be able to discuss the specifics with you. I don't think you're going to find anyone who can do that."

Well, being that I have never played a Buescher Eb tuba, like the one shown in this eBay ad, before... how would I know it sucks? I do have a pretty good understanding of acoustics, but I was just curious if there was a particular reason that these tubas had a problem. Maybe improper taper of the bugle or poor quality control at the factory??? But is it just "one of those things" that just sometimes happen when a design is put into production? You know... the old "looks good in theory but doesn't work in practical application" story....

Maybe I should ask about your take on the bugle of the 1923 Keefer Eb tuba with a 20" bell that I have here. I have been wondering if it might make a good candidate for a valve section swap to make it a 4 valve Eb. But if this bugle has a bad "rap" I might look elsewhere.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:37 am

Dave, I used a three valve Distin (close relative) like that for special stuff in the symphony until I got an F. Didn't notice any REAL problems (other than age) at all.

Bloke, you know, of course, that the international standard for low pitch was below 440 in the 19th century, so I'm sure that horns were built to MANY different pitches, high & low...

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:44 am

This certainly answers the original question for the person who was considering this as a way to begin to switch to an Eb. I will suggest that he look elsewhere. Thanks.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:43 am

windshieldbug wrote:Dave, I used a three valve Distin (close relative) like that for special stuff in the symphony until I got an F. Didn't notice any REAL problems (other than age) at all.

Mike, in my experience, the Distins were a completely different animal from the "monster" Eb instruments (York, Conn, King, Keefer, Buescher...). Much thinner metal and a gorgeous singing tone--probably one of the best bass tubas ever made.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:00 pm

I just assumed that since Keefer took over Distin when Distin retired, that there were a lot of similarities.

But you're right, I love my Distin!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:31 pm

Jonathantuba wrote:Could it be that in America, manufacturers developed the Monster Eb's using BBb tuba components which means the bore expands just too rapidly producing intonation problems?

Well, it's true on the Yorks that the bell and bottom bow of the monster Eb instruments are pretty much interchangeable with the 4/4 BBb. But I'm not entirely certain that the problems with intonation experienced with "monsters" occur that late in the bugle. I suspect that there are problems earlier on.

jacobg · Post by **jacobg** » Fri May 12, 2006 5:13 pm

I thought the consensus was that old Eb's needed to be played with original (very small) mouthpieces, and that once you could find one, intonation was magically perfected.
I've also noticed that these old Ebs tend to be very easy to lip pitches up and down.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:38 am

bloke wrote: My point is that I don't pretend to understand acoustics enough to know WHY the bugle of a tuba sucks...and I don't think anyone else does either. *What I and some other folks DO have (like those folk in Europe who build a lot of different kinds of tubas) is a bit of specific experience:

I've owned two or three of those Buescher Eb's (very large/early 20' vintage), and they are unplayably out-of-tune.

OK, so your opinion is based on practical experience... good enough for me. Buescher Bb's are good (at least for cutting to CC

), Eb's are not good.

There is a lady in one of the community bands that I play in that has an old Buescher 4 valve upright Eb and she seems to do pretty good with it and it fits into the section, intonation wise, fairly well. So I was just having ideas floating through my head.... since the Buescher on eBay looks to be in really nice shape and it already has the "4th valve."

bloke wrote:I've also played a Keefer like the one you're showing there. The one I played was very "sweet", had a very good scale, but was a good bit below A=440 (not a serious issue).

Transplanting, the valveset...?? Maybe...if it's a good fit.

You might be able to transplant the BELL as well, but that would really depend of the Keefer bottom bow. The bottom diameter of that Buescher bell is quite large.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to use the Buescher for parts to do the job. I would never want to chop up a nice looking complete horn just for parts. I just wanted to know if Keefer Eb tubas had a good enough reputation to be considered for a valve swap. I have been keeping an eye out for an old 4 valve Eb sousaphone for those kind of parts. I like the sound of this Keefer, but the valves are kind of worn out and it has a couple of other issues that keep it from playing the way I would like.

bloke wrote:bloke "and just because I played a Keefer like that one that is 'good', doesn't mean that the one is your picture is for-sure 'good'...It's hard to play a picture."

I know what you mean.... I have an attraction for older tubas. My newest tuba is the 1966 Holton 345 that Dan is restoring. Then there is my 1955 York-Master, 1927 gold plated Conn 38K, 1926 Conn 30K Helicon (needing an overhaul), this 1923 Keefer and a little 1895 Conn Eb. I am just trying to see if I can find or put together a decent playing larger Eb tuba.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:41 am

bloke wrote: For $1500 - $2000, you can pick up (if you bide your time) a nice, useable YEP-321. For $5000 (rarely-offered, but out there there occasionally) you can pick up a Willson 3200.

Not exactly "old" tubas, but each has a good reputation. But of the old classic monster Ebs like the York, Conn, Holton, Keefer, Distin, Buescher and King... which played well and had an acceptable in tune scale? I am just an old BBb player with not much experience on many of the old Eb horns. If I had the money to spend on it and a real driving need to play an Eb, I would pick up a Besson 983 or the Willson. But I just want one to have fun with and maybe play a few solos. Plus I have friends that have a British Brass band a few miles away.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Sat May 13, 2006 2:30 pm

harold wrote:Hate to change the direction of the thread but,

J.W. York and Sons Eb tuba: Made in 1904, original condition, A rare classic! Four top action piston valves, this is an excellent player as is but what a great candidate for restoration! An excellent find for the collector. Does not come with case.

$2400.
http://www.oberloh.com/sales/sales.htm

This one has a new receiver and the tuning slide has been replaced so that it plays on pitch.

Why get a Frankenhorn when you can get the real deal?

Yes, I have looked at that one several times. I have been tempted. Only I am not a big fan of upright valves. I would prefer front valves if I could find them.

Then there is this York Eb for sale at Baltimore Brass, but it's almost as much as a new Besson....

But those big pull rings kind of give me a clue as to the pitch qualities of this horn.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:44 pm

Occasionally a Besson Eb comp will pop out of nowhere. If it is a 4-valve, you have all you need. If a 3-valve, you may have to settle for the low A natural limit, because Bessons are extremely variable with false or real pedal response due to their bell flare and comp valve block. Jonathantuba is about right. In Britain, the Eb horn is the standard tuba, not a BBb, which is considered a specialty instrument for the brass bands, although more and more orchestral players are playing CC's, so more development has been put into moderate sized Eb tubas for the last 150 years than any other pitch. Just make sure it predates the move away from Edgeware, so that you know it will be in tune.

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