WTF is this?

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:02 am

harold wrote:My thinking:
1. York.
2. York.
3. York.
4. York.
5. York.
6. York.
7. York.
8. York.
9. York.

What's on your mind Harold???

Any chance the Bell & body don't belong together???

Tim

dmmorris · Post by **dmmorris** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:08 am

I believe that it is York.

Looks a lot like my 1937 York, BBb, 4-valve with Recording Bell (York Band Instrument Company).

I agree with the other identifiers. Those large diameter valves look very York althought the caps are different than mine. The later B&M valve sets on the York Masters were dinky by comparison. Also, my Recording bell has the same flang arrangement.

Earthlink blotto'd my website & photos. I'll post a pic once I get a chance to reload.

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:09 am

harold wrote:
trseaman wrote: What's on your mind Harold???

Tim
I'm thinking that I might need to buy this from the guy that has it in order to continue my collection.

I was wondering, so I checked the auction to see if you had even bid but Ebay has a new policy that blocks that information... So much for free communication.

Tim

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:22 pm

harold wrote:
I checked the auction to see if you had even bid but Ebay has a new policy that blocks that information
That is to avoid ersatz "second chance offers".

The funny thing is that you can still view the complete "bid history" before the auction ends... I'm sure they'll block that when they catch on!

How many Yorks are in your collection at this point in time???

Tim

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:45 am

On Horn-u-copia there has been an ongoing discussion on the involvement of Blessing and York by a trumpet player who worked for Bill Johnson when young. It seems to have worked both ways...

dmmorris · Post by **dmmorris** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:36 pm

Just for comparison.....here's the 1937 York, BBb, 4-valve, Silver plate shown with the recording bell (York Band Instrument Company). The Blessing that Harold now has is spot-on for a York as noted in the thread above, though his looks like it will need considerable TLC.

I also have an cut-down Upright bell from an Eb (York and Son) that Sam Gnagey restored for me. I prefer the upright bell, but having the recording bell is nice for outside gigs or deep stages with large ensembles. I used this on friday for a Ragtime gig in a small hall. (Piano, banjo, violin, trumpet, tuba, drums). I tend not to worry about the tarnish too much. Like the saying goes....."doesn't seem to effect the playing"

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:24 pm

harold wrote:Well, I managed to buy this horn from the guy that bought it off E-Bay. Counting it, I now have 10 Yorks.

Just to let everyone know, Harold didn't get this tuba because the winning bidder flaked on everybody, including the seller. The seller contacted me, since I was the second high bidder, and offerred me a second chance offer to buy this horn, so I grabbed it. I did contact Dan Oberloh about it and he contacted Harold. Harold gave me his blessing (no pun intended, well... maybe) to buy this tuba, since the other guy was screwing with him about the shipping. The winning bidder was trying to run some sort of scam because he kept giving excuses for payment to the seller and trying to tell Harold the the shipping was going to cost an arm and a leg. The shipping from WI to CA turned out to be $59.

It looks really cool next to my York-Master. I wonder where B&M got their design?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:28 pm

Bandmaster wrote:I wonder where B&M got their design?

From what I understand, Carl Fischer may have sent B&M the York tooling!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
Bandmaster wrote:I wonder where B&M got their design?
From what I understand, Carl Fischer may have sent B&M the York tooling!

Mike, maybe measurements, but tooling? Other than rumor, do you have any solid evidence for this?

Just because some parts have similar dimensions doesn't mean that anyone got anyone else's tooling. Just ask some the hackers around here how much commonality there is (i.e. interchangeable or nearly-so parts) between various brands of "monster" eefers.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:25 pm

No, it's a rumor, and nothing I can substantiate, but Fischer apparently moved stuff somewhere while they went on building student horns. Maybe it's just sour grapes from ex-Johnsonites. I don't even know what "tooling" entails.

But if the Blessing was built while Johnson was running the place, and the B&M later, they DO look very similar...

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:09 pm

He worked for York, then for the owner of York, Bill Johnson in Grand Rapids, after he sold out to Fischer. He was, I take it, young at the time, but he has some interesting insights. I'm sure he'd be willing to share some.

I've asked him for details about the CSO Yorks, etc., but he's a high brass guy, and only really recalls overhearing the more experienced people talking about it sort of sideways.

But he has some very interesting insights.

Just another WAG, but I assumed it'd be no real problem to pack up the large instrument stuff in a box and send it over on a slow boat if you [Fischer] were only interested in high volume/low cost student horns.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:38 pm

You might be able to add some more fuel to the fire, if you could show that none of the tubas that B&M produced before Fischer even resembled a YM in dimensions.

I've seen a rotary B&M whose bottom bow was exactly the same as the YM 4/4 BBb show above, right down to the long "legs" and dimensions of the entry/exit.

If you take a 4/4 BBb GR York bottom bow and a 4/4 BBb YM bottom bow, and measure them both at the "shorter" length of the York bow, (i.e. at the same point), I suspect that you'll find that the YM is larger than the York.

Since I've got a YM bottom bow (and a couple of GR York BBs) kicking around the shop, maybe I should do this exercise myself.

If tooling was ever needed for anything, it'd be for the bottom bow. I doubt that they're even remotely the same when you get down to getting the calipers on them.

To my eye, the YM bell flare also looks to be a bit shallower than the York--another exercise for me, when I get some time. If true, that should kill the idea of the bell mandrel making it across the sea.

That there's a resemblance, between two tubas--well, that can be said for a lot of instruments.

But I've got to know--if I take the measurements and they're not the same (or even close), will this put the speculation to bed, finally?

Otherwise, I might as well spend my time doing something worthwhile.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:37 pm

Well, it's mostly me that's been doing any tuba speculating, so yes, it would in my mind.

Lou was a trumpet player, and all he and the other York guys remembered is that they packed up a bunch of stuff from the factory and shipped it off, and that some of the cornet models that came back in at that time were known as the "German" Yorks.

And certainly you're right about B&M being more than capable on their own, but with all the proven German designs, why would they build horns that were so close to old Yorks?