1913 Conn Monster

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:55 pm

Intriguing. I'd definitely want some first-hand knowledge about how it plays before I bid. Interesting there is nothing about how it plays in the listing...could be a dream or a dog. Also, the pitch standard would worry me with a 1913 horn.

Eric "still pro-pachyderm" L. reference to "war of the sigs"

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:40 am

WakinAZ wrote:Intriguing. I'd definitely want some first-hand knowledge about how it plays before I bid. Interesting there is nothing about how it plays in the listing...could be a dream or a dog. Also, the pitch standard would worry me with a 1913 horn.

Says `intonation is good', which is maybe the most quantifiable aspect of how it plays, and hopefully `good' is relative to 440 A. At worst, it's better than `I don't play, so ...' He supposedly plays or knows someone who plays and can in theory answer questions about pitch etc.

What I don't like is `Pick up would require payment in advance to avoid "buyer's remorse."' I have bought a couple of horns from local sellers, and it was worth something to me to know that I could inspect them before paying. I can imagine that a buyer could have second thoughts after the heat of the auction has worn off, and use some trivial disappointment with the item as a pretext, but ... buyers back out all the time anyway, what's the difference. It just saves both of us the trouble of a return. Which is I guess the point - this guy isn't taking returns. You bought it, you keep it. I don't know. At $700, it's already a little expensive for that, in my book.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:52 am

I would call Matt for an opinion if he really worked on the horn.Anything under 2k for a full size 4 valve BBb in playing condition might be worth taking a little risk.One of the reasons a seller uses ebay is to have a "all sales final" transaction.Bid accordingly...

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:29 am

Donn wrote: Says `intonation is good'

Oops, missed that - one of the hazards of big run-on paragraphs, eyes glaze over after a while.

That being said, I've not seen an eBay listing with anything other than a "good" evaluation of intonation. You just don't get TubeNet levels of honesty and completeness on eBay. Mike's suggestion is probably the best advice in this thread - ask Matt. Hopefully he can remember how this thing plays, if he even had time to toot on it.

Eric "who likes how it looks and the price so far" L.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:47 pm

WakinAZ wrote: That being said, I've not seen an eBay listing with anything other than a "good" evaluation of intonation. You just don't get TubeNet levels of honesty and completeness on eBay.

Well, yeah! If this is news to anyone, review some posts on this forum. But it depends. There are a couple of regular used horn sellers, with varying degrees of credibility - one sells a lot of junk, and tends to say `plays great, big sound' or something like that just as a matter of routine, another sells mostly pretty choice items and is pretty believable. But the junk merchants do have a return policy and are therefore somewhat accountable for what they say. Not this guy.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:08 pm

Yeah, guess I'm being redundant/obvious. Playing is believing; everything else is just more noise.

Eric "who has learned this the hard way, several times, and tends to buy 'known good' makes/models when buying sight unseen" L.

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:48 pm

Donn wrote: But the junk merchants do have a return policy and are therefore somewhat accountable for what they say.

It has seemed to me that eBay sellers with return policies are rare. eBay seem like the "take it or leave it" forum - if you want return policies, go somewhere else.

I'm sure there are some sellers who do otherwise, but I would never deal with eBay fees as a seller if it is not an "all sales final" situation.

All of that is assuming the seller does not make any material misrepresentations. Then, in my home state at least, the buyer has a right to a return, with the seller having to bear all costs (including shipping both ways).

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:57 pm

Uncle Buck wrote: It has seemed to me that eBay sellers with return policies are rare. eBay seem like the "take it or leave it" forum - if you want return policies, go somewhere else.

Well, I'm not going to make any guarantees, but there's a standard section on each item page called "Return Policy", and from just a quick survey of the first page of tuba/baritone items, the trends for used items are 1) none, and 2) 7 days. The 7 days sellers are a minority, but not a tiny one, and there's one seller on that first page whose return policy I have personally exercised.

In my case, it could have been material misrepresentation, but verbal description of how an instrument sounds is obviously a grey area. In the present case, can I invoke that state law if I decide that a flat middle line D means his `good' intonation was a falsehood?

When I'm looking at something on EBay, it's my responsibility to find out what I need to know about it, if not from the description then by asking questions. If I put in a bid, it's based on that information, and I'm not going to make final acceptance subject to anything else. But there's considerable risk that this information is not true (is anything true? what is "truth"?), and that's why I look at the return policy.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:40 pm

I would also submit that the sellers are only likely trying to protect themselves from the plethora of buyers they are apt to find. I can tell you that if you are looking to buy a 1913 Conn for an everyday horn, you are probably in for a disappointment. Buying it as an antique, however, is another issue altogether.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:09 pm

WakinAZ wrote: ...
That being said, I've not seen an eBay listing with anything other than a "good" evaluation of intonation. You just don't get TubeNet levels of honesty and completeness on eBay.

I see very few "good" evaluations of the intonation characteristics of particular tubas on Tubenet especially if that particular instrument is for sale.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:46 pm

I should have said that if there is any mention of how the horn plays re: response and intonation, it is almost always positive. As I noted above, that was a redundant and obvious observation to make: of course a seller will present their wares in the best light possible.

I've seen some very honest "warts and all" ads here on TubeNet (Marty's most recent comes to mind), and I did aspire to that standard with my current ad. The closest I came an evaluation of the intonation was this underwhelming exercise in safety:

WakinAZ wrote:The intonation is better than other three valve Ebs I've played due to the compensating system

Eric "who wasn't sure if you were bringing up my ad in particular, but what the hey, I've got nothing to hide" L.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:30 am

WakinAZ wrote:I should have said that if there is any mention of how the horn plays re: response and intonation, it is almost always positive. As I noted above, that was a redundant and obvious observation to make: of course a seller will present their wares in the best light possible.

I've seen some very honest "warts and all" ads here on TubeNet (Marty's most recent comes to mind), and I did aspire to that standard with my current ad. The closest I came an evaluation of the intonation was this underwhelming exercise in safety:

WakinAZ wrote:The intonation is better than other three valve Ebs I've played due to the compensating system
Eric "who wasn't sure if you were bringing up my ad in particular, but what the hey, I've got nothing to hide" L.

Marty's descriptions of horns he has for sale are fantastic (especially regarding intonation). I was actually thinking of using one of Marty's ad as an example of a good one for my post.