TubeNet

bloke wrote:the eBay thing that (sorry, but) I cannot help but strongly suspect to be an "artist's rendering?

True, but if it's real (piston valves and all), it would almost have to be a one-off (and the embossing wouldn't fit the diameter of that bell... )

bloke wrote:the eBay thing that (sorry, but) I cannot help but strongly suspect to be an "artist's rendering"

You mean photoshopped? 1) That's a lot of work for your average crook, I mean it's pretty detailed, and 2) the fraud would be unusually transparent.

This thread from a couple years ago would presumably be talking about the same instrument.

bloke wrote:Where are ANY recognizable BACH PARTS...There is NO (at least not to me) recognizable Bach bracing, hardware, caps, or buttons anywhere on the ENTIRE INSTRUMENT.
...and Vincent Bach wouldn't have had any trouble roller-stamping that bell. He had a FACTORY at his disposal. They could have (in just a few seconds) oval-ed that bell to accommodate a trombone/bass trombone roller-stamp and then re-rounded it... ...and (Take a look at that factory custom-engraved Bach 36 trombone from the same era) do you REALLY believe that Bronx, New York FACTORY engravers would do SUCH a CRAPPY engraving job as that...??

Man, I hate it when you bring the real world into things!

I think that someone should contact the Oegon Symphony player that purportedly owned this instrument. It really does look like a Holton valveset and Buescher finger buttons, and a mixture of Holton and Buescher parts. Although I would be as suspicious as Bloke at such hand-engraving on the bell, I guess it is POSSIBLE that it was made a very long time ago, such as before Vincent Bach moved to Mount Vernon, but it would seem odd for such a rare old instrument, if it really is, to be on the 'Bay with virtually no provenance listed. And, even the horns built in 1925 had serial numbers, so I'm really suspicious.

Living in the Pacific North West, I am not at all familiar with this horn. It might be a good idea for someone to contact John Richards down in Portland, he might know a thing or two about it. I am with Joe and Lee, looks like Holton, Buescher and some possibly Euro parts.

My experienced opinion; having worked on and restored more ''prewar'' Bach instruments (trumpets, cornets,flugs,bass-trumpets, trombones,etc) then most technicians could ever hope too: No way in HELL was that horn produced by Mr.Bach! And I am sure he would be fairly pissed to see his name falsely applied and in such a crudely executed and pathetic manor.

Daniel C. ''who knows he could have executed a better job of creating such a fake but would beg the question... why?'' Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank

The valve caps look like Holton. Some of the ferrules do too.

The fourth valve casing is not parallel to the other three and, if you look close enough, you'll see what appears to be a diamond brace between the 3rd and 4th casing. The 4th valve looks cobbled on. That is particularly noticeable in the auction picture where the valves are pulled out of their casings.

I read that the seller is not the owner. The seller may be misrepresenting the instrument while the owner may not.

It seems obvious to me that it's a frankenhorn with a decent lacquer job.

Is it possible that just the bell is actually off of a New York Bach bass trombone? The bell is only 9 inches in diameter. Maybe it's not being misrepresented so much as the seller is just reading what's on the bell???

This looks a lot like the horn Donn pointed out in an old thread. The OP of that thread may be able to shed some light on it.

I don't know anything about this horn but it makes no sense to me for it to be a fake. If it was built to be a fake, why Bach? The fraud new enough to copy the engraving, why not use Bach parts? Why not match the engraving to the parts? It may just be a Bach bell on frankenhorn body.

After taking a step back, as bloke requested, it seems to me to be entirely possible that the constructor of this "horn" was merely having a laugh with us, not trying to forge...

No way it's a bass trombone bell -- the throat is too big and it is too short. It looks like a marching baritone (or perhaps baritone bugle) bell. I don't believe vincent bach made any of those!

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:but would beg the question... why?

If anyone has an idea why, I'd be curious too.

I'm going to sit on the other side of the fence and say "real". I've seen the real former-Portland beast, and this looks like it in all respects. It has the offset 4th, and the unique stamp, and the valve set would obviously not be from his shop, since he made no other instruments of this size... Bach only made valve sections of larger size after they bought Olds tooling. The guy has a good selling record, and coming up with that story would be a real reach on one's own.

I'm guessing that the bulk of the parts came from Orsi or another Italian firm – perhaps the whole beast. The receiver may have been replaced either before or after sale, but it could be original. Bach did buy parts from abroad, such as rotary valves for his early rotary trumpets.

I'm betting real deal, for too many reasons to list. I also recall seeing earlier pictures of this instrument with the hand-wrap on the tuning slide, and the Bach also had that bizarrely angled gooseneck to the bell.

J.c.S.