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There are no words for how much these people irritate me. Now it's not only their respect for the truth that's in question, but their literacy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiller-Tuba-M ... 416e1c8983

And they're located in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, so it can't be an amateurish translation this time

talleyrand wrote:There are no words for how much these people irritate me. Now it's not only their respect for the truth that's in question, but their literacy.....

+100. I went 'round and 'round with those guys over a very simple matter when their stuff first started appearing on the tuba scene.

The comp euphonium and comp 3v British Band Baritone are actually quite nice. The bass trombone sucks...left hand is ergonomically crap. But, they dealt with me on a couple of things. But, yeah, they need to improve their copy.

Yes, my problem is not with the instruments. They are just like those of every other dealer in Chinese instruments, with all the same pros and cons. I own two Chinese tubas myself at the moment, including one just like the one in this auction, only with a different brand on the bell, and I'm more than satisfied with them. My problem is with the deceptive way they market them.

Yeah, "American Heritage" kinda gets to me. Especially since the design is basically a copy of the MW travel horn and a bazillion other European horns. And that it's made in China.

Well the tuba was originally German design, the Eb slide is my design (so British design) and of course they are made in China. There is nothing 'American Heritage' about this tuba.

Do you not have any laws about item description in USA? This would be near to considered fraud in UK.

When I saw this, I wondered how it could be listed as both an Eb and an F horn? The description says nothing about a set of different slides for each pitch and I wouldn't think you could pull the slides out far enough to drop it from F to Eb??

It comes with a second longer main tuning slide to drop it to EEb. I think it was Neptune who got the manufacturer to do that.

Edit: Ah. I see Jonanthan has already confirmed that the Eb slide was his idea.

Neptune wrote:..... Do you not have any laws about item description in USA? This would be near to considered fraud in UK.

Lack of laws isn't the problem, Jonathan. The US has too many laws and no way to enforce them!

I'm curious why there are so many cheap, chinese clones of great instruments. Are there not patent laws in place for say a Miraphone 186 or 1291? I would think someone would be angry and filing litigation but it seems normal to see cheap clones. Even if something was a little different I would still worry a battle like Apple vs. Samsung would ensue. I have not seen any Conn or King tuba clones in modern day. Is it just regulation or that Conn-Selmer has renewed all these pantents time after time and Miraphone let them go? Could anyone enlighten me?

WilliamVance wrote:I'm curious why there are so many cheap, chinese clones of great instruments. Are there not patent laws in place for say a Miraphone 186 or 1291? I would think someone would be angry and filing litigation but it seems normal to see cheap clones. Even if something was a little different I would still worry a battle like Apple vs. Samsung would ensue. I have not seen any Conn or King tuba clones in modern day. Is it just regulation or that Conn-Selmer has renewed all these pantents time after time and Miraphone let them go? Could anyone enlighten me?

The numbers just arent there. The cellphone market is magnitudes larger than the tuba market. As long as the wholesalers market them as "German-style rotary valve tubas" and not "The same design as the famous Miraphone 186" they can get away with it because it isn't worth the bother for Miraphone to go after them. Maybe someone else could comment on the Conn-Selmer thing but some of the cheap Chinese 'student model' horns look like a King 1140.

WilliamVance wrote:I'm curious why there are so many cheap, chinese clones of great instruments. Are there not patent laws in place for say a Miraphone 186 or 1291? I would think someone would be angry and filing litigation but it seems normal to see cheap clones. Even if something was a little different I would still worry a battle like Apple vs. Samsung would ensue. I have not seen any Conn or King tuba clones in modern day. Is it just regulation or that Conn-Selmer has renewed all these pantents time after time and Miraphone let them go? Could anyone enlighten me?

The design of the Miraphone 186 isn't patentable. I doubt any of the Conn / Selmer tubas are either.

Grooving for Heaven wrote:I do find it interesting that they can copy a $6000 compensating euph and sell it for $1000, but a $15000 BAT copy sells for $7000.

Although all(?) BATs are some sort of "copy" of the York design, the tuba in question isn't exactly a clone. Not to mention that it's really an American-based company who designed/sells the tuba, and it's just being built in China. You are comparing it to Chinese-based manufacturers and vendors who resell their products in the West. Much different situation.

Regarding the BAT, I wouldn't count on it costing much less than $7,000 any time soon, and that's a good thing.

bort wrote:

Grooving for Heaven wrote:I do find it interesting that they can copy a $6000 compensating euph and sell it for $1000, but a $15000 BAT copy sells for $7000.

Although all(?) BATs are some sort of "copy" of the York design, the tuba in question isn't exactly a clone. Not to mention that it's really an American-based company who designed/sells the tuba, and it's just being built in China. You are comparing it to Chinese-based manufacturers and vendors who resell their products in the West. Much different situation.

Regarding the BAT, I wouldn't count on it costing much less than $7,000 any time soon, and that's a good thing.

So when a Chinese company copies something on its own, it's bad, but when an American tells them what to copy, it's ok?? Really???

Well, if that's what my post said, it's not what I intended it to say. More like, my impression was that more R&D went into that BAT than just straight-up cloning another instrument, so that naturally makes the price higher. Not to mention, the involvement of an American company in the R&D, so again, that makes the price higher.

More than anything, this is my dig on the "Designed in USA, manufactured in China." labels that companies seem to love using these days.

cjk wrote:So when a Chinese company copies something on its own

I don't think the Chinese ever decide to clone a western tuba on their own. All the tuba made in China were originally initiated by some western dealer taking copy of what they want made to China and paying tooling costs for it to go into production.

The difference with Big Mouth tubas is that an original prototype is developed, rather than 'off the shelf' design used as basis.

There is the potential for less expensive Chinese made BAT in the future...

Grooving for Heaven wrote:So if schiller decides to clone a 2165, we can expect it to sell for less than $3000. Interesting. ....

'Schiller' doesn't decide to clone anything. It's just the house brand of Jim Laabs Music. Whatever horns Laabs sells are available to any other music store or individual who wants to set up a mail-order Internet-based business.

You can buy the same horns from respectable business or individuals. Heck.... JinBao will probably sell YOU five at a time for a descent price.

$3,000 is very wishful thinking.

TubaTinker wrote:Whatever horns Laabs sells are available to any other music store or individual who wants to set up a mail-order Internet-based business.

You can buy the same horns from respectable business or individuals. Heck.... JinBao will probably sell YOU five at a time for a descent price.

Not necessarily true! Depends on the contract covering production. Horns can be produced exclusive for one company to sell as are the Big Mouth ones