TubeNet

but the seller thinks it is.... I'd say B&S. Price is right!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-VALVE-ROTORY- ... 19d8f6c726" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Absolutely an Asian copy. NOT B & S.

That is an enormous 4th valve slide.

So the Chinese have started copying the B&S hardware such as backplates, etc?

Or might it be a tuba that someone assembled from various parts?

Heavy_Metal wrote:So the Chinese have started copying the B&S hardware such as backplates, etc?

Or might it be a tuba that someone assembled from various parts?

It appears so. But if you look closely you can see the differences. On this tuba, the thumb ring flange/backplate is brass with a half-round/half-flat-edged thumb ring. On real B&S/ B&S-made tubas (like your Sonora), the thumb ring is completely round, with a nickel-silver flange/backplate. The ferrules, braces, and rotor paddles are different too.

Btw, the rotor paddles & linkage are REALLY messed up (bent) on this Chinese tuba

the elephant wrote:

bort wrote:That is an enormous 4th valve slide...

... she said.

"Go 4th and conquer"?

tooba wrote: On this tuba, the thumb ring flange/backplate is brass with a half-round/half-flat-edged thumb ring. On real B&S/ B&S-made tubas (like your Sonora), the thumb ring is completely round, with a nickel-silver flange/backplate. The ferrules, braces, and rotor paddles are different too.

Btw, the rotor paddles & linkage are REALLY messed up (bent) on this Chinese tuba

Actually, on mine the thumb ring is round on the inside and almost flat on the outside. They may have used two different types. I've also seen thumb rings on B&S horns installed at different angles- I actually had mine repositioned so it wouldn't dig into my thumb.

And on the horn in this thread-

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53412" target="_blank

the thumb ring backplate looks like it might be plain brass rather than nickel-plated- that, however, might be a trick of the light in the photo.

Regardless, it sold for $464.00 plus shipping. Someone either got a deal on a salvageable horn, or something they could use for parts.

Heavy_Metal wrote:
Actually, on mine the thumb ring is round on the inside and almost flat on the outside. They may have used two different types. I've also seen thumb rings on B&S horns installed at different angles- I actually had mine repositioned so it wouldn't dig into my thumb.

And on the horn in this thread-

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53412" target="_blank" target="_blank

the thumb ring backplate looks like it might be plain brass rather than nickel-plated- that, however, might be a trick of the light in the photo.

Regardless, it sold for $464.00 plus shipping. Someone either got a deal on a salvageable horn, or something they could use for parts.

Well yeah, I'm sure B&S used different parts every once in a while. But the ones I have seen/played have all had completely round thumb rings with the nickel-silver "frog eye" backplate. Bet your Sonora has a nickel-silver backplate, right? And I bet they have the skinny rotor paddles with 'S'-links (unless you changed them)..
The old B&S/ B&S-made tubas used those old 'stick' braces, later changing them. Really, the old B&S tubas (esp. the BBb stencils) were loose copies of the old Alexander tubas. The bracing, ferrules, backplates, and overall shape were similar to the Alexanders.

As bloke hinted at, the horn that just sold on eBay was probably an older Chinese clone. There are too many differences between this tuba and the B&S stencils. And I can't quite put my finger on it, but the eBay tuba just had a "cheap" look to it - like all parts were fabricated by machine, poorly assembled with crappier materials...

tooba wrote: Bet your Sonora has a nickel-silver backplate, right?

It does.....

tooba wrote: And I bet they have the skinny rotor paddles with 'S'-links (unless you changed them)..

Nope, mine came with the uniball valve gear. One of these days I'll have to take a picture and post it. The camera shouldn't self-destruct if I keep myself out of the shot

tooba wrote:Really, the old B&S tubas (esp. the BBb stencils) were loose copies of the old Alexander tubas. The bracing, ferrules, backplates, and overall shape were similar to the Alexanders.

Some say they copied Alexander, others say it was Miraphone. When I played at last year's TubaChristmas a couple other participants, who I had not met before, thought my Sonora was a Miraphone. One of the other guys was playing a 186 though, and if you looked closely you could see the detail differences.

tooba wrote:As bloke hinted at, the horn that just sold on eBay was probably an older Chinese clone. There are too many differences between this tuba and the B&S stencils. And I can't quite put my finger on it, but the eBay tuba just had a "cheap" look to it - like all parts were fabricated by machine, poorly assembled with crappier materials...

You might be right. But as another TNFJ member pointed out in another thread, if it is a clone they copied some of the details you normally find on a B&S, like those backplates and the leadpipe anchor.

Who knows, maybe whoever bought it will end up on TubeNet!

Been away for a few days....just getting back.

tooba wrote: And I bet they have the skinny rotor paddles with 'S'-links (unless you changed them)..

Heavy_Metal wrote: Nope, mine came with the uniball valve gear.

I can almost guarantee that your Sonora originally had 'S' linkage & skinny rotor paddles.
Like this Sonora:

Heavy_Metal wrote: You might be right. But as another TNFJ member pointed out in another thread, if it is a clone they copied some of the details you normally find on a B&S, like those backplates and the leadpipe anchor.

Who knows, maybe whoever bought it will end up on TubeNet!

The Chinese will copy anything and everything - you can bet on it. It is no big deal for them to copy something "simple" like backplates or leadpipe mpc receiver braces.

A couple other things I forgot to mention is that true old B&S 'stencils' will have SOME kind of name (stencil) on the bell as well as "Germany East" or "GDR" or "Made in GDR" or something to that effect stamped on the mpc receiver.
I am willing to bet that the tuba that just sold on eBay had none of the above; being yet more indicators that it was Chinese...

tooba wrote:Been away for a few days....just getting back.

tooba wrote: And I bet they have the skinny rotor paddles with 'S'-links (unless you changed them)..

Heavy_Metal wrote:Nope, mine came with the uniball valve gear.

I can almost guarantee that your Sonora originally had 'S' linkage & skinny rotor paddles.

Well, I've had it since it was new, so I am sure the valve gear is original. Only things I've replaced were the springs, which weren't very well tempered, and a ball that broke.

Others have said that B&S would manufacture horns to whatever specs they were given if you ordered a large enough batch. My valve gear may be one such example. Or, they may have been transitioning from S-link gear to uniball gear around that time.

Heavy_Metal wrote: Well, I've had it since it was new, so I am sure the valve gear is original. Only things I've replaced were the springs, which weren't very well tempered, and a ball that broke.

Others have said that B&S would manufacture horns to whatever specs they were given if you ordered a large enough batch. My valve gear may be one such example. Or, they may have been transitioning from S-link gear to uniball gear around that time.

I had no idea uniball linkage was even available on tubas back in 1976
I had thought that the 'S' linkage was used well into the 1980's