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The B&S-style thumb ring flange is interesting. Wonder how old that makes this one. I thought it was a B&S until I saw the garland engraving. Cool tuba!

There is engraving on the garland, but I can't tell what it says. The rest of the horn looks just like my Sonora. That and the fact that a yard-sale Alex would probably never happen, tells me this is a B&S 101.

At that price it should be worth fixing up.

The engraving is definitely Alexander. The leadpipe looks a little scary...

Heavy_Metal wrote:There is engraving on the garland, but I can't tell what it says. The rest of the horn looks just like my Sonora. That and the fact that a yard-sale Alex would probably never happen, tells me this is a B&S 101.

At that price it should be worth fixing up.

The engraving is visible on the ninth photo (albeit upside down) and it does say "Alexander."

There were a lot of odd things going on in the evolution of tubas during reconstruction. The body of this horn certainly bears all the characteristics of B & S/VMI and most likely is of Czech origin. The bell definitely says "Alexander". I've seen engraved back caps like this on B & S/VMI 'stencils' al la a Carl Wunderlich I once owned.

It could be that the bell is a transplant... or just the garland. Could be that Alex made the bell and one of the other cottage industries did the final assembly. I've seen many variants of the B & S/VMI model 101.

Interesting example of a "counterfeit". This tuba is definitely a B&S/Weltklang Model 101 BBb tuba made in Markneukirchen. For whatever reason, someone has engraved the Alexander name on the wreath.

Here are the identifying markers:
1. There are no engraving lines on the valve block ferrels and slide ferrels.
2. The larger nickel silver ferrels (bell to bottom bow etc.) are flat sheet with just two engraving lines. Alexanders and B&S (not the cheaper Weltklang models) have contoured 3D ferrels.
3. Paddle assembly with thin paddles are typical of late 1960s till early 1980s B&S/Weltklang. On an Alex, they are much chunkier and thicker, or are complete oval instead.
4. The thumbring plate, carriage rings, and mouthpiece receiver are all standard B&S parts.
5. It's difficult to see in the photo without a side by side comparison, but the Alexander 163 BBb has a different fatter bell shape and a slightly larger bore size (20.50mm Alex to 19mm B&S) and this particular bell profile is clearly from the B&S catalogue.

The half round nickel silver bracing was used by both Alexander and B&S until the 1970s.

Regarding the engraving. For a decent engraver, the Alexander logo is not particularly difficult to copy...

Having said everything, when in good condition, this model is usually an excellent tuba. However you should know what you're buying.
Cheers everyone,
TheBerlinerTuba

Wow, very interesting, Louis. I stand corrected! Your knowledge is always appreciated.

I vote Counterfeit. Stencils come with unengraved kranz and often unengraved bells. Easy to counterfeit "Alexander" in generic gothic script (I assume in germany, everybody just writes like that all the time)

It matches a stencil in every possible detail (too many to list - literally all details of all components and how they come together). Including failure mode and effects analysis: BTFO thumb and carriage rings with club-shaped flanges remaining.

lowbrassmaniac wrote:

Regarding the engraving. For a decent engraver, the Alexander logo is not particularly difficult to copy...

The motive to do that on a horn isn't clear to me at least. What would be the point? So someone who doesn't know can resell it 50 years later for more than the original owner paid for it? That doesn't make sense. Thanks for the other info though, interesting to know the intricacies of Alex horns.

Apologies, when I used the word "counterfeit" I am not necessarily assuming intent to defraud. Unfortunately though, I suspect the name Alexander has been valued higher than a B&S stencil for quite some time. It might have even been done by the importer back in the 1970s. We didn't have internet back then, so it would have been much more difficult to check. Whether the price difference was worth the cost of the engraving, i have no idea.

Just to be certain, I tried to fit a NOS 163 BBb wreath to a 101 B&S bell and it doesnt quite fit, so the stencil's wreath is probably original.

When i have a bit more time, I'll make a post detailing the exact differences with photos etc so that we're all on the same page.

There was a horn much like this on ebay discussed a while back. I remember it being shiny, so I don't think this is the same one.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63511&hilit=Alexander

Think of it this way: If it is a B&S made tuba you likely won't have such intonation issues as you would with a typical Alex

If it's a B&S tuba with am Alex bell, that would explain the leadpipe weirdness.

doublebuzzing wrote:Think of it this way: If it is a B&S made tuba you likely won't have such intonation issues as you would with a typical Alex

+1!

bort wrote:If it's a B&S tuba with am Alex bell, that would explain the leadpipe weirdness.

Knowing nothing of these instruments, I have to wonder why this wouldn't be the obvious explanation, rather than a counterfeit engraving on the kranz which seems like a mighty odd thing to do. Bells get swapped all the time, from what I understand I may be the one of the few who've owned several tubas and haven't ever transplanted a bell from one to the other.

The flanges on the thumb ring and lyre holder on the Alex-engraved bell are B&S-style. More decorative. Most Alex flanges I've seen are mostly plain and rhomboidal. It would be odd to have a transplanted bell without transplanting that hardware as well, yes?

Donn wrote:

bort wrote:If it's a B&S tuba with am Alex bell, that would explain the leadpipe weirdness.

Knowing nothing of these instruments, I have to wonder why this wouldn't be the obvious explanation, rather than a counterfeit engraving on the kranz which seems like a mighty odd thing to do. Bells get swapped all the time, from what I understand I may be the one of the few who've owned several tubas and haven't ever transplanted a bell from one to the other.

Sorry just to kill that last bit of suspense...
The tuba is most likely 100% B&S including the bell. The small side of the bell that goes into the ferrel, on the B&S should be around 38-37.50cm in circumference. For an Alexander 163 BBb the circumference is 42-42.50cm. Although one could theoreticall shrink down the small end or expand the bell tenon, this is not a job for the faint of heart and it would leave telltale signs. However if you take a quick look at the picture on Ebay of the inside of the bell, you will see a continuous single seam which is SOP for most B&S BBb bells in the 1970s. On the Alexander 163s built up until the 1980s, there was a large triangle piece set in the flair.

The leadpipe has probably just been very poorly modified or repaired.

Have a good day everyone,
Cheers from Berlin
TheBerlinerTuba