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not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby bloke » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:57 am

Does this look like a full-blown counterfeit (not just a "knock-off") to the rest of you?

My understanding (yes?) is that counterfeits can be confiscated with no redress, and that anyone selling them (regardless of whether they are aware of something being counterfeit, regardless of whether those items are new or used, and regardless of whether the sellers are licensed businesses) can become the targets of investigations.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Senior-Bach-Silver-Plated-Bach-LT-180S-43-Trumpet-Small-Brass-Musical-Instrument/282628417055
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby Donn » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:46 am

Note "MADE IN USA" on the valve cover. As pointed out in a trumpetherald thread.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:52 am

The ad declares Hong Kong, China as the location. In addition to what Donn pointed out, the bell engraving says Elkhart, Indiana, USA. It copies the distinctive logo on the case and in the literature shown in the photos.

Yes, I think this is illegal and can be treated as a so-called counterfeit item under US Code. It is a counterfeit item.
Last edited by the elephant on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby Donn » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:59 am

There's a Bach warranty in the box, too. No serial number. Trent Hamilton youtube video from 2015 $280 Fake Bach Stradivarius Trumpet, he actually seems to think it's a great deal if you don't mind cheap junk.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:01 am

He has been overwhelmed with the Walmart ethos.

EDIT: Okay, I watched the video. I have had interactions with that guy in the past on my videos. He is a complete bonzo idiot. In this video he makes many mistakes in his comments, misidentifying a lot of stuff and problems. He is generally pretty arrogant if you discuss that with him, and he is fond of making derisive comments in the YouTube videos of others, regularly going after actual experts. The guy cannot play well enough to determine many of the things he claims, and makes hilarious statements about many of the instruments he reviews.

Seriously, not a good source for information unless you think Wikipedia is akin to World Book.

In short, Trent would think a Lark or Swallow trumpet from China in the late 1970s would be a great deal if he could get it for $10. If it plays poorly, no price is a good deal. He should produce videos for that horror site Expert Village. Truly. He is like some of those guys.
In the multiverse there is a TubeNet where we talk about how we greased our cat with toothpaste and hot sauce so it would fly better in the rain. Even then someone would ask whether the cat was lacquered or silver plated.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby Casca Grossa » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:10 pm

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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby bisontuba » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:43 pm

Wow...
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby bort » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Casca Grossa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDqhv7mhwUw" target="_blank


Beat me to it. I still think it could be fake (did this just for the sake of the video...?)
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby Donn » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:10 pm

The most plausible scenario there, to me, would be where he'd already done it, by accident, and then decided to work it up as a video. Pretty good view count on the video. But it doesn't really make him look good, and I can't see anything about the "before" that hints at existing damage. That doesn't mean he couldn't have pushed some things back together and fooled me, though.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby largobone » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:26 pm

Why would he do that? Sure...views. But at no more than 10K views on a vast majority of his videos, what purpose would views serve other than feeding an ego? (which, BTW, I don't believe Trent has) It's not like he's making money on these videos, he does it for fun. Killing a contra for views, when instead he could continue to use it and get more views and have fun with his $2500 toy? That's stupid.

Sure, he's not a fantastic instrumentalist, but he's certainly not bad enough that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between two horns of vastly different quality. AND, he does actually point out that $10 trumpets are worthless in one of his videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YIAarGGljg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) and trombone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGewC7X2Gyg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank). This is why, later, he uses the Indian trumpet to try to make a 6-valve trumpet just because (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UG6CkX3-qk" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank).

As far as cheap horns go, why is it so hard to believe that some of them migth be decent nowadays? Maybe Tubenet is a little behind, but many trumpeters and trombonists have been coming around to some of the Chinese horns over the last couple of years. Remember, just a few years ago Wessex was "cheap Chinese junk" and now they're just as reputable as some American companies (Conn-Selmer I'm looking at you). Yeah, they aren't perfect, but they might be good enough to warrant trying out and making a judgement off of that.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby The Big Ben » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:28 pm

largobone wrote:As far as cheap horns go, why is it so hard to believe that some of them migth be decent nowadays? Maybe Tubenet is a little behind, but many trumpeters and trombonists have been coming around to some of the Chinese horns over the last couple of years. Remember, just a few years ago Wessex was "cheap Chinese junk" and now they're just as reputable as some American companies (Conn-Selmer I'm looking at you). Yeah, they aren't perfect, but they might be good enough to warrant trying out and making a judgement off of that.


That's not the argument here. These are counterfeits which are posing as a trumpet they are not, built by a maker they are not and constructed in a country they are not.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby Donn » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:13 am

They also, according to him, play very sharp on the octave, but he still reckons they're a bargain if you aren't too picky. There are a couple different threads going here - one where the counterfeiters are exposed for what they are, as it turns out they have been exposed of years. Another where this kiwi instrument reviewer is getting a little grief for his endorsement of cheap junk, in this case also clearly counterfeit, and thus in effect helping promote that business. And there's the inevitable tangent where someone leaps to the defense of Chinese instruments.
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Re: not "knock-offs", but COUNTERFEITS

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:40 am

TubeNet, NZ
In the multiverse there is a TubeNet where we talk about how we greased our cat with toothpaste and hot sauce so it would fly better in the rain. Even then someone would ask whether the cat was lacquered or silver plated.
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