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https://m.ebay.com/itm/5-4-B-BBb-Tuba-C ... 2374426221
The clocksprings give me pause.
No case either.

This guy always has nice-looking used Amati or Cerveny instruments for sale. I've messaged back and forth with him a bit, seems like a decent fellow. Anyone dealt with him?

Eric "von Schteric"

My Alex has clocksprings. They work the same as newer types. Haven't had a problem.

The horn doesn't look beat-up, so someone obviously took decent care of it.

Still- two grand?

Uwe, the seller has a good reputation, he has sold many kaiser tubas. I have a friend in Peru who has a Cerveny Kaiser sold by Uwe.

well respected seller, would have no concerns there.
The model is interesting though, have not seen a tuba exactly like that. Doesn't look like a common cerveny.

the elephant wrote:I would ask the seller about the pitch range he lists. What exactly does he mean by 440-443 Hz? Is that the range the tuning slide can hit at its extremes when the horn is warmed up? If so, that would have you bordering on flat at all times. It can be cut a little, though. But I would ask, Eric.

42.9" tall
18.1" bell
.835" bore

Not that much larger than an Alex 163, not that much smaller than a 164, and a little bigger in some ways. Sort of hits a real "sweet spot" if you ask me. It even looks a lot like an Alex except for the lower 4th tube on the back, which is a classic Cerveny wrap.

I like it.

everything in this post is backwards. if it was really 440-443 (it's not, it can't be, that's just a generic description and there's plenty of tuning slide travel) it would be borderline sharp all the time not flat. and the 4th valve wrap is the most Alex-like thing not the least.

At that price? No. I bought a generation-later Cerveny Kaiser for $400. With work it will be a good player. Here are some of the problems you will face.

First, the rotors will be very worn with all of the problems that worn rotary valves have. I had a 1903 Cerveny Kaiser and looked into getting the the rotors plated and fitted. No can do. The rotors open ONLY at the top, the bottom of the casing is silver soldered. Lapping the casing requires an open casing which this tuba does not have. Additionally the casing and rotor on this era Cerveny are tapered so that when the fitting wears the player can tighten the rotor cap, push the rotor lower in the casing thus having a better fit.

So... plating the rotor can make it impossible to fit back in the casing with no guarantee of a better seal.

Second, this rotary valve section is first generation rotary valve mechanical design. The stop for the rotor is built into the rotary arm pivot. It cannot be adjusted... IF you can make it work. This is difficult to explain in text, you'll have to trust me even though you don't know me. When they do work, they are noisy as hell.

I have looked into replacing the rotary stack with modern rotors. This is difficult because the first two rotors are a different size than the last two rotors. The valve tubing would not fit unless you had the stack cu$tom built.

Replacing the entire valve section including new tubing has it's own set of problems. If you could convince one of the fine artist level repair techs (who are often on this site) to do the work, you could end up spending more than many new tubas.

There is no telling what the condition of the metal on the inside of the tubing is like. If it is pitted there would be no way the instrument would ever play well. There used to be a guy in Germany who knew how much milk to pour into a pitted leadpipe to fill the pits with.... milk scum I guess. Or so I was told. If must have been a common problem.

So my advice would be to stay away at this price. Somewhere around $600-800 and it would be worth the gamble. If you played it and loved it, the price might go higher but there is still the problem of the rotary arm stop.

I have played a Cerveny Kaiser BBb tuba from around 1900-1904 (dated by the street address on the Louis Vitak badge soldered on the bell) which is one of the finest tubas I have ever played. Flexible but with a thundering fortissimo and a velvet pianissimo, it stole my heart.

A friend of mine, David Mayfield, bought the horn from Joseph Hebert (pronounced "A-bear") who had bought it from one of the Hollywood studio musicians of the 1930's-50's. I arranged a lesson for David with Arnold Jacobs who fell in love with the horn and tried to buy it on the spot. David refused but Jake asked me about that horn for the next ten years. It remains one of the 3 or 4 best horns I've ever played.

But the tuba in this picture is not that tuba and never will be. I hate to end the day dream but don't buy this one. Just my opinion.

Thanks all. I think I'll keep my euros in my wallet until a better one shows up.

Clocksprings are not a problem. I keep several widths of spring steel and it's just a matter of popping apart the spring housing, making a new spring, and putting everything back together. Making a spring is only a matter of selecting a length of spring stock and annealing the ends so they can be formed to suit. Getting the little bugger wound up and back inside the housing without slashing a finger or two is my only problem.

The spring steel will not degrade over time as long as it it kept dry. The culprit is rust from lack of oiling and water getting inside the housings during cleaning. Whenever I chem-clean a horn with clocksprings, I simply take the paddle bar assembly off the horn. That's not a bad idea for regular springs either because even that style utilizes a steel shaft that can rust if not properly lubricated.

In engineering terms, clocksprings are referred to as 'constant velocity' springs. Properly set up and adjusted they are (in my opinion) superior to other styles of springs. The full motion of the finger paddle tends to be more even. Not certain but I thing clocksrings can still be ordered on the better European horns.

Dan Schultz wrote:Clocksprings are not a problem. I keep several widths of spring steel and it's just a matter of popping apart the spring housing, making a new spring, and putting everything back together. Making a spring is only a matter of selecting a length of spring stock and annealing the ends so they can be formed to suit. Getting the little bugger wound up and back inside the housing without slashing a finger or two is my only problem.

The spring steel will not degrade over time as long as it it kept dry. The culprit is rust from lack of oiling and water getting inside the housings during cleaning. Whenever I chem-clean a horn with clocksprings, I simply take the paddle bar assembly off the horn. That's not a bad idea for regular springs either because even that style utilizes a steel shaft that can rust if not properly lubricated.

In engineering terms, clocksprings are referred to as 'constant velocity' springs. Properly set up and adjusted they are (in my opinion) superior to other styles of springs. The full motion of the finger paddle tends to be more even. Not certain but I thing clocksrings can still be ordered on the better European horns.

I agree about clocksprings - several of my "player" tubas have them and they work very well when properly maintained.

There is a fairly easy solution to the finger slashing problem: I bought an old spring winder, turned an appropriate mandrel for it (roughly the same as the barrel in most clockspring mechanisms) and fabricated a simple retainer out of brass.

Simply wind the prepared spring (cut to length, ends annealed and formed) into the retainer and then use the barrel and spindle to load the spring into the casing. No more blood, sweat and tears.

WakinAZ wrote:https://m.ebay.com/itm/5-4-B-BBb-Tuba-C ... 2374426221
The clocksprings give me pause.
No case either.

This guy always has nice-looking used Amati or Cerveny instruments for sale. I've messaged back and forth with him a bit, seems like a decent fellow. Anyone dealt with him?

Eric "von Schteric"

See above about clocksprings. This is a cool old horn (c.1920s, maybe late teens) but frankly the seller gives me pause as I and another person who purchased from him had very similar problems. Please feel to PM me for details.

the elephant wrote:*MY* worry about this tuba is the post-type stop arms. Those rockers are heavy and the post they hit is thin. They tend to be slow, too.

There is no stopper post in those old style Cerveny mechanisms. The bumpers are inserted into holes the stop arms. The stops themselves are formed from the S-link ends, little "wings" on either side of the pivot. I own three tubas with these actuators and they work very well. The one caveat is that one must use oil resistant material for the bumpers or they melt away from oiling the mechanisms (if you oil the mechanisms :\ ).

<EDIT>
My late 1880s Schuster does have those "post" style stops, I've put a lot of hours in playing that horn and have had no problems with it either. In fact it is a favorite player of mine.

FYI: Dillon's has a Cerveny 601 BBb for $1900 right now. Says it has been de-dented but the bell has some patches on it. They only posted one picture but, if you were interested in it, you could ask for more.

Not sure if the bell throat of the 601 is big enough to call it a "kaiser tuba" and not just "big howitzer".

Yes I saw that. Looks pretty good except it has clock Springs and is raw brass - two strikes for this guy. I could probably put up with the raw brass although I really don't like it.
But the clock Springs just make me nervous. The techs in the town I live in are not really that great - I have trouble getting decent work done on the more common setups, let alone old technology

Yes, picky and cheap is a bad combination, trust me.

Maybe I'll see if Matt can quote me to convert the linkage and springs.

WakinAZ wrote:Yes I saw that. Looks pretty good except it has clock Springs and is raw brass - two strikes for this guy. I could probably put up with the raw brass although I really don't like it.
But the clock Springs just make me nervous. The techs in the town I live in are not really that great - I have trouble getting decent work done on the more common setups, let alone old technology

Yes, picky and cheap is a bad combination, trust me.

Maybe I'll see if Matt can quote me to convert the linkage and springs.

Picky and cheap.

I'm confident that Matt will do you right on conversion, He might even buff it up and lacquer it for you.

Thanks for this thread, and in particular for Alex C's right up.