Here's something you don't see very often
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This is for posting links to off site deals that you are not personally selling,but wanting to pass along good deals
This is for posting links to off site deals that you are not personally selling,but wanting to pass along good deals
- Lew
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Here's something you don't see very often
For those who are interested in early brass instruments, here's an interesting example. I have seen one other of these for sale on eBay. Unfortunately the seller put a relatively low buy-it-now price and it sold within 15 minutes of being listed.
He had this listed 2 times before and someone apparently told him that it was worth a lot more than his starting bid, so he relisted. As a seller I would appreciate knowing if I was significantly underpricing something, but as a buyer, it's annoying to lose the opportunity to get a relative bargain. If a seller gets more than they paid for something and is happy with the result, does it matter if he gets what it might be worth retail?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 36851&rd=1
He had this listed 2 times before and someone apparently told him that it was worth a lot more than his starting bid, so he relisted. As a seller I would appreciate knowing if I was significantly underpricing something, but as a buyer, it's annoying to lose the opportunity to get a relative bargain. If a seller gets more than they paid for something and is happy with the result, does it matter if he gets what it might be worth retail?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 36851&rd=1
- windshieldbug
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- Chuck(G)
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I frankly don't understand the "collector" thing. If there were a market for this thing as a musical instrument, then manufacturers would be producing "toilet seat" baritones and tubas as a matter of course--it's not that hard to build one of these.
It's clearly not a Civil War item, so what good is it? Are there reenactment groups for the Spanish-American War?
It's clearly not a Civil War item, so what good is it? Are there reenactment groups for the Spanish-American War?
- Lew
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These are interesting if only because they are unique, but I doubt that the market for them is nearly as large as that for Civil War era instruments. I think that $2500 for this is probably the top of its value now.Chuck(G) wrote:I frankly don't understand the "collector" thing. If there were a market for this thing as a musical instrument, then manufacturers would be producing "toilet seat" baritones and tubas as a matter of course--it's not that hard to build one of these.
It's clearly not a Civil War item, so what good is it? Are there reenactment groups for the Spanish-American War?
I like to collect unique old brass instruments because they are interesting to look at/display, or to play around with, not necessarily for any anticipated appreciation in value. I have a set of Henry Distin low brass including a valve trombone, Bb tenor horn, Bb baritone/euphonium, Eb tuba, BBb tuba, Eb helicon, and BBb helicon because I like the way they look, and when restored they are great players. I expect that if I were to sell them I might get what I paid, but certainly not much more.
Last edited by Lew on Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- windshieldbug
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No. (well, maybe, but who gives a rat's...) There are Cornet bands, however, reenacting music from the civil war on (and some quite well. What you suggest is just like telling a stamp collecter that their 18XX upside-down airplane mint plate block is only good for posting a Woolworth's catalog. I have a bunch of pre-ebay collected horns, and some I did perform on regularly. The sound is quite different than modern instruments, and worth preserving. IMHOChuck(G) wrote:Are there reenactment groups for the Spanish-American War?
in the previous post, I was referring tongue-in-cheek to my avatar.
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
- Chuck(G)
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So if it's worth preserving, give it to a museum. One day, you'll die and your belongings will be subject to the whim of your heirs. Your prized horn could end up being painted black and hung as a decoration in someone's bathroom.windshieldbug wrote:[No. (well, maybe, but who gives a rat's...) There are Cornet bands, however, reenacting music from the civil war on (and some quite well. What you suggest is just like telling a stamp collecter that their 18XX upside-down airplane mint plate block is only good for posting a Woolworth's catalog. I have a bunch of pre-ebay collected horns, and some I did perform on regularly. The sound is quite different than modern instruments, and worth preserving. IMHO
My wife is in the midst of settling her mother's estate. While her mother left a will, it did not call out specifics. So now, between children who have for decades, pulled together as a family, cracks are appearing. Over stuff, much of it utilitarian everyday items. My wife is soldiering on through this, but her younger brother thinks that he should have the bulk of the estate because he has room for it and can preserve it--and that the other children should not be compensated for this apparent selflessness. It's not a pretty scene.
Is the reason that people collect stamps or paperweights that items heighten the self-esteem of the collector? That's pretty sad, if you think about it very much. It's al manufactured detritus of human existence.
It must be the engineer in me, but if an old stamp is valuable and sought after, why not print some nice replicas using modern technology and materials? The product will be superior in every respect--and it won't be so fragile and old. That should make it inherently more valuable, no?
Preservation to heighten understanding is a very noble goal, but preservation for the sake of "collecting" is beyond my ken and seems to me to be the first cousin to OCD.
As to the motives of the seller of the baritone--if I ran across some piece of old sheet metal that I had no use for that coiuld fetch a nice price on eBay, you'd better believe thatI'd be trolling for victims in a flash at top dollar.
- Leland
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Well, not really, because the new replica won't have the history of the original, even if it's just a postage stamp.Chuck(G) wrote:It must be the engineer in me, but if an old stamp is valuable and sought after, why not print some nice replicas using modern technology and materials? The product will be superior in every respect--and it won't be so fragile and old. That should make it inherently more valuable, no?
Someone could make a replica of a Porsche 917 longtail (with a LOT of work) and probably make it outperform the original, but it will have never raced at Le Mans.
The replica will be more usable because it's neither as fragile nor as rare as the original, but that doesn't make the replica any more valuable.
Whoa, I'm getting philosophical...
The reason why this old stuff is so interesting to collectors is that it reflects our transient existence. That Civil War-era horn has "been there, done that", whether it was played at family reunions or drumming up support for the brothers & dads going off to war. The same can't be said about a replica.
It's the same reason why the bugle played at Kennedy's funeral is kept on display at the Army Band hall.
- Lew
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Actually, my Distin horns are explicitly mentioned in my will as to be donated to a specific museum to which they will be relevent.Chuck(G) wrote: So if it's worth preserving, give it to a museum. One day, you'll die and your belongings will be subject to the whim of your heirs. Your prized horn could end up being painted black and hung as a decoration in someone's bathroom. ...
- Chuck(G)
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But what is the intrinsic historic value of the original? Does the original tell us more about bygone times than a replica or any other equally old stamp would? Does the value arise simply because an object is old? If so, I've got a fortune in my front yard--most of the rocks to be found there predate the human race.Leland wrote:Well, not really, because the new replica won't have the history of the original, even if it's just a postage stamp.
What's the historic value of a Beanie Baby?
- Leland
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Regarding old collectible stamps, it's the difference between being able to say, "This stamp was part of a short production run with an upside-down airplane," and having to say, "This replica looks like the old stamps with the upside-down airplane." One is, and the other pretends to be.Chuck(G) wrote:But what is the intrinsic historic value of the original? Does the original tell us more about bygone times than a replica or any other equally old stamp would?
Just being old isn't enough -- it has to be at least somewhat uncommon as well. Those rocks are just rocks. If one of them revealed a fossil, though, it would have some extra value.Does the value arise simply because an object is old? If so, I've got a fortune in my front yard--most of the rocks to be found there predate the human race.
It shows how consumerism and collector-ism crashed together to produce something truly annoying, and we need to remember so that we don't let it happen again.What's the historic value of a Beanie Baby?
- Chuck(G)
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Mind you, I'm happily married to a history teacher who is the daughter of a history teacher. Her mother was a member of DAR. I never asked her if she was also a member of UDC, but she could well have been. Can you say "tradition"?
It sounds as if there's more than a bit of superstition associated with the collection business. Mystical properties of a rare talisman. Stamps and bugles and cars that have aquired supernatural powers because of where they've been and so have been mysteriously changed by events.
Suffice it to say that I don't get it.
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Back in the 70's, I knew a co-worker who got the idea that wheat-head pennies were an endangered species. So he devoted himself to indiscriminately collecting them, going to his bank and buying hundreds of dollars worth of pennies at a time, combing through them and re-rolling the non-wheat heads.
At the end of about two years, he had 100,000 of the things. It was then that he discovered that if you have 100,000 of anything, it wasn't particularly rare. I pointed out to him that there were probably untold millions of the things languishing in old change jars and piggy banks and lodged in sofa cushions.
I think he managed to sell his collection off for about its face value. He never wanted to talk about it afterwards.
It sounds as if there's more than a bit of superstition associated with the collection business. Mystical properties of a rare talisman. Stamps and bugles and cars that have aquired supernatural powers because of where they've been and so have been mysteriously changed by events.
Suffice it to say that I don't get it.
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Back in the 70's, I knew a co-worker who got the idea that wheat-head pennies were an endangered species. So he devoted himself to indiscriminately collecting them, going to his bank and buying hundreds of dollars worth of pennies at a time, combing through them and re-rolling the non-wheat heads.
At the end of about two years, he had 100,000 of the things. It was then that he discovered that if you have 100,000 of anything, it wasn't particularly rare. I pointed out to him that there were probably untold millions of the things languishing in old change jars and piggy banks and lodged in sofa cushions.
I think he managed to sell his collection off for about its face value. He never wanted to talk about it afterwards.
- windshieldbug
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I'm with you on both counts. On the preservation of that kind of performance, and for collecting as a means to have a basis for authentic performances. Otherwise NOT to collect for collecting's sake, unless one is a curator or performer. I can tell you that I did not pay anywhere near that for my Lehnert Centennial alto valve trombone, and that I performed with it on a regular basis for over twenty years. Because it was a good horn.Chuck(G) wrote:Preservation to heighten understanding is a very noble goal, but preservation for the sake of "collecting" is beyond my ken and seems to me to be the first cousin to OCD.
As to the motives of the seller of the baritone--if I ran across some piece of old sheet metal that I had no use for that coiuld fetch a nice price on eBay, you'd better believe thatI'd be trolling for victims in a flash at top dollar.
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
- Tubaryan12
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This is an interesting point. I think we all do this in one way or another. Unless we are all living on the smallest piece of property that will sustain us, living with the bare minimum of "things" we are all collecting something we really don't need. The only difference is that one person may like old horns and the other may like fast cars, and another may want a phone in every room its all about what we like. How much is too much of anything is usually defined by people who either don't have as many or have no desire to obtain as many. I don't get Beanie Babies....but I own more cd's than most of my friends. They may think I'm nuts to spend that much money on music...I think I just like music.Is the reason that people collect stamps or paperweights that items heighten the self-esteem of the collector? That's pretty sad, if you think about it very much. It's al manufactured detritus of human existence.
Preservation to heighten understanding is a very noble goal, but preservation for the sake of "collecting" is beyond my ken and seems to me to be the first cousin to OCD.
BTW...if anyone has any extra money they are hoarding I'll take some of it off of your hands for you and start you on your road to recovery
- Joe Baker
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So Chuck -- considering that no one will be flying them again, would you be in favor of selling the original Wright Flier, or Glamorous Glynnis, or for that matter the Spririt of St. Louis or the Enola Gay, for scrap? Is it mere compulsion or superstition that causes us to keep these artifacts -- this "detritis"?
Certain times and events in history have meaning to people. Some events -- the first flight being a great example -- have significance to just about everyone; other times are significant to select people. For example, the time my grandfather spent as an ice-man in Tulsa would be of no interest to you, but considerable interest to me. I grew up hearing his stories about those years (Grandpa may have been a fine ice-man, but he was a GREAT storyteller).
I think it's human nature to feel a greater connection to the events of the past when we can hold in our hands the "detritis" of the day. That feeling of connection grows even stronger if the objects are the SPECIFIC objects related to the event. Thus a pair of ice tongs from the 1920s would be a great keepsake for me to hang on the wall, and would remind me of Grandpa's stories when I saw them; a pair bearing the name of the Tulsa Ice Company would be even better; a pair of my grandfather's OWN ice tongs would be better still. Any pair would help me to mentally connect with my grandfather's memory, some just better than others.
Likewise, interesting artifacts -- missteps in particular, for some reason (perhaps because they didn't evolve into something familiar; the branch just stops there, frozen in time) -- in more anonymous history serve as touchstones that give a greater sense of what it was like to be a musician at various times in history. They don't yield complete images; any one artifact can only give a pale view into history, with limited perspective. But an amalgamation of artifacts brings the picture more and more into clear focus.
So I don't think it's about magic, nor necessarily a compulsion (though I've seen it become one in isolated cases), but just about feeding information into the imagination. It's a tangible connection with history, and it serves as the physical evidence to support written history. Why would I want it in my house, rather than in a museum downtown? Well, for two reasons: first, I want to see it more often than I can go downtown. Second, (if "it" is a musical instrument) I want to actually play it, something I can't do if it's in a display case under lock & key. Third -- for a lot of us -- putting money into a thing like that may have to be a temporary thing. I might need my money back, which might mean selling it to someone who shares my interest.
If the object were of such great interest that throngs would want to see it -- the sarcophagus of King Tut, or the aforementioned aircraft -- of course, a museum would be the appropriate place for it anyway; but if it's something FAIRLY common -- an old instrument, or a pair of ice tongs -- I can have my own personal museum. What a privelege!
_______________________________
Joe Baker, who seeks the intangible through the tangible.
Certain times and events in history have meaning to people. Some events -- the first flight being a great example -- have significance to just about everyone; other times are significant to select people. For example, the time my grandfather spent as an ice-man in Tulsa would be of no interest to you, but considerable interest to me. I grew up hearing his stories about those years (Grandpa may have been a fine ice-man, but he was a GREAT storyteller).
I think it's human nature to feel a greater connection to the events of the past when we can hold in our hands the "detritis" of the day. That feeling of connection grows even stronger if the objects are the SPECIFIC objects related to the event. Thus a pair of ice tongs from the 1920s would be a great keepsake for me to hang on the wall, and would remind me of Grandpa's stories when I saw them; a pair bearing the name of the Tulsa Ice Company would be even better; a pair of my grandfather's OWN ice tongs would be better still. Any pair would help me to mentally connect with my grandfather's memory, some just better than others.
Likewise, interesting artifacts -- missteps in particular, for some reason (perhaps because they didn't evolve into something familiar; the branch just stops there, frozen in time) -- in more anonymous history serve as touchstones that give a greater sense of what it was like to be a musician at various times in history. They don't yield complete images; any one artifact can only give a pale view into history, with limited perspective. But an amalgamation of artifacts brings the picture more and more into clear focus.
So I don't think it's about magic, nor necessarily a compulsion (though I've seen it become one in isolated cases), but just about feeding information into the imagination. It's a tangible connection with history, and it serves as the physical evidence to support written history. Why would I want it in my house, rather than in a museum downtown? Well, for two reasons: first, I want to see it more often than I can go downtown. Second, (if "it" is a musical instrument) I want to actually play it, something I can't do if it's in a display case under lock & key. Third -- for a lot of us -- putting money into a thing like that may have to be a temporary thing. I might need my money back, which might mean selling it to someone who shares my interest.
If the object were of such great interest that throngs would want to see it -- the sarcophagus of King Tut, or the aforementioned aircraft -- of course, a museum would be the appropriate place for it anyway; but if it's something FAIRLY common -- an old instrument, or a pair of ice tongs -- I can have my own personal museum. What a privelege!
_______________________________
Joe Baker, who seeks the intangible through the tangible.
- MaryAnn
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Ooooh! Not that long ago I, ahem, "accused" someone of having OCD because from my POV he is beyond over the top with collecting stuff. Like, he doesn't need ONE of everything, he needs TWELVE of everything, plus a few extras in case someone ELSE might need one someday, and he could be the white knight bestowing the priceless piece of junk on them.Chuck(G) wrote: Preservation to heighten understanding is a very noble goal, but preservation for the sake of "collecting" is beyond my ken and seems to me to be the first cousin to OCD.
Now of course, if he only collected TUBAS, that might be different.
MA
- Chuck(G)
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After careful photographiic and structural records were made, if it wasn't flyable and no museum wanted it, why not scrap it? The records tell me what I need to know to build another if the urge should strike me. I certainly wouldn't want it in my garage collecting dust. I certainly wouldn't want to tie my identity to something like "the guy who owns the Wright Flyer". That's just not healthy. I am not my "stuff".Joe Baker wrote:So Chuck -- considering that no one will be flying them again, would you be in favor of selling the original Wright Flier, or Glamorous Glynnis, or for that matter the Spririt of St. Louis or the Enola Gay, for scrap? Is it mere compulsion or superstition that causes us to keep these artifacts -- this "detritis"?
I don't need to own the Pyramid of Khufu to understand or appreciate it. Let the Egyptian government handle that one.
It wasn't the Spriit of St. Louis that did the flying, it was Lindbergh. And I have no compulsion to own, say, his big toe, though I suspect that some folks might pay a pretty penny for it. But even so, the big toe wouldn't be Lindbergh the man with all of his drive and aspirations. Even if I could extract the DNA from his toe and clone another Lindbergh, the crucible that formed the man's personality would still not be present. I might wind up with nothing more than a used car saleman or hedge fund manager.
Come to think of it, aren't at least one of the world's major religions involved in the business of selling bits and pieces of their dead holy people? And that's not superstitious?
One day, we'll probably be able to scan a person's brain and capture the essence of their personality. That will certainly be worth collecting. Not the tidbits and toys that person used in his or her journey through life. That's just so much stuff.
Heck, I own a Distin eefer myself that's well over the century mark. I like the way it plays and it was a pretty good deal for the price. If someone offered me a new Chinese instrument that had similar but superior playing characteristics as an even-steven swap, that horn would be outa here in a flash.
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I understand that things are worth whatever the highest bidder says they are. After a friend died, his widow went about disposing of some of his personal effects. She asked me if I was interested in any of his tubas. I saw a nice Miraphone 184 BBb and asked her what she thought might be a fair price.
$20,000. And she wasn't kidding. It seems my friend had told a little fib to justify the "great deal" to his wife. Well, I didn't want to be the one to disabuse her and told her that her price was a bit rich for my diet.
But consider that up until the time that she learned otherwise, that 184 was worth $20,000--to her.
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I should add that my late mother-in-law never disposed of her late husband's posessions. The prospect my wife now faces is having to clean out a basement chock full of textbooks, papers, old grade books, tests, quizzes, etc from almost 50 years of teaching. Not to mention boxes full of 40 year old pancake mix and canned goods that are almost certainly unfit for consumption.
I suspect that most of it will end up in a dumpster.
- Tubaryan12
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I find it wierd that so many see no value in keeping artifacts and antiques and collecting them. I mean, if we were talking about the CSO Yorks, I'm sure everyone would agree that they've seen some great history and they should be kept up with. While it was the player playing them more than the instrument itself, why would Hirsbrunner base all it's piston models on it's design and sell so many? How could Hirsbrunner or Nirschl (and soon Yamaha) charge as much as they do for copies of the Yorks if there wasn't that mysterious magic in the design?
The point is, we're into tubas, some more than others. Other people are into other things. We see a beautifully crafted piece of metal that we can express ourselves with while those others just see a huge piece of metal. Maybe stamps are the most interesting things in their lives. Maybe there's something else to it. We see little bits of printed adhesive paper, I wonder what they see?
(edited for spelling)
The point is, we're into tubas, some more than others. Other people are into other things. We see a beautifully crafted piece of metal that we can express ourselves with while those others just see a huge piece of metal. Maybe stamps are the most interesting things in their lives. Maybe there's something else to it. We see little bits of printed adhesive paper, I wonder what they see?
(edited for spelling)
Wes Krygsman
Adjunct professor-Kean University
Freelance musician-NJ/NYC area & private lessons
Nirschl York 6/4 CC
Yamaha 821 F
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Conn 36k Fiberglass sousaphone BBb
Adjunct professor-Kean University
Freelance musician-NJ/NYC area & private lessons
Nirschl York 6/4 CC
Yamaha 821 F
Cerveny 601 Kaiser BBb
Yamaha Ybb 103 BBb
Conn 36k Fiberglass sousaphone BBb
- Joe Baker
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[quote="bloke"]Some believe that they become an important person when they own such items and others use the items to try to feel closer to history....
However, I can't see how either pursuit (the celebrity of being the owner and/or the trying to feel closer to a former user of an item) can achieve a sustained success/happiness....
Wouldn't it be more enjoyable for more folks to try to become the person who makes the history (or even simply the "__story") with an item(s)[quote]
Sustained success or happiness?? I'd never look at these things as any more than a reminder, which is why I'd never really "collect" a large number of any one thing. My "collection of old odds & ends" has a few musical items, a few farming items, some sports items, some books, some furniture -- each piece reminds me of something or someone that I consider myself BETTER if I remember them often. Maybe it's what others accomplished with less than I have; maybe it's a person who overcame obstacles or humble beginnings; maybe it's just that some interesting but obsolete thing was once "new and improved"; maybe it's just that I'm not such hot stuff (I can't look at my baseball stuff without chuckling to remember how really TERRIBLE I was at the game!) These are incentives for me TO make my own story!
____________________________
Joe Baker, who doesn't really "collect", but just "keeps" carefully selected items.
However, I can't see how either pursuit (the celebrity of being the owner and/or the trying to feel closer to a former user of an item) can achieve a sustained success/happiness....
Wouldn't it be more enjoyable for more folks to try to become the person who makes the history (or even simply the "__story") with an item(s)[quote]
Sustained success or happiness?? I'd never look at these things as any more than a reminder, which is why I'd never really "collect" a large number of any one thing. My "collection of old odds & ends" has a few musical items, a few farming items, some sports items, some books, some furniture -- each piece reminds me of something or someone that I consider myself BETTER if I remember them often. Maybe it's what others accomplished with less than I have; maybe it's a person who overcame obstacles or humble beginnings; maybe it's just that some interesting but obsolete thing was once "new and improved"; maybe it's just that I'm not such hot stuff (I can't look at my baseball stuff without chuckling to remember how really TERRIBLE I was at the game!) These are incentives for me TO make my own story!
____________________________
Joe Baker, who doesn't really "collect", but just "keeps" carefully selected items.
- TMurphy
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I think I agree with Mr. Baker here. An example:
My father was honored by the NJ Boxing Hall of Fame as their Man of the Year a few years ago (he is the treasurer of the Hall). At the awards ceremony, one of the inductees for that year, artist LeRoy Nieman, drew a sketch of my father--unprompted--and gave it to him. It means the world to my father (he since had it matted and framed), because this well-known artist made this sketch for him, and no one else. That drawing will be in my family forever, because it has meaning.
I am a baseball fan, and last weekend took a trip to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, NY. The artifacts and exhibits they had were fascinating to me (one of my favorites among which was looking at one of the first baseball gloves ever used...most gardners have more padding on their glove!). I enjoyed looking at them, but would not own them. That requires space and money I don't have, and a commitment to upkeep I'm not willing to make. Plus, it prevents others from being able to see these items. Truly historic items, I think, belong in a museum where they can be properly maintained and displayed to the public.
-Tim Murphy, noting that ultimately what he thinks does not matter, and people are free to spend their money on whatever they like.
My father was honored by the NJ Boxing Hall of Fame as their Man of the Year a few years ago (he is the treasurer of the Hall). At the awards ceremony, one of the inductees for that year, artist LeRoy Nieman, drew a sketch of my father--unprompted--and gave it to him. It means the world to my father (he since had it matted and framed), because this well-known artist made this sketch for him, and no one else. That drawing will be in my family forever, because it has meaning.
I am a baseball fan, and last weekend took a trip to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, NY. The artifacts and exhibits they had were fascinating to me (one of my favorites among which was looking at one of the first baseball gloves ever used...most gardners have more padding on their glove!). I enjoyed looking at them, but would not own them. That requires space and money I don't have, and a commitment to upkeep I'm not willing to make. Plus, it prevents others from being able to see these items. Truly historic items, I think, belong in a museum where they can be properly maintained and displayed to the public.
-Tim Murphy, noting that ultimately what he thinks does not matter, and people are free to spend their money on whatever they like.