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The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:31 pm

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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bigtubby » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:03 pm

... and I'm so jealous of the person who who owns a custom left handed Leningrad/St.Pete BBb helicon ...
Last edited by bigtubby on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:18 pm

Haha Thank you, I love it, and got a wicked good deal on it through ebay!
So far I've just restored it to playable condition.(valves respond, but clank a bit, and all slides move but some are tight) The most extensive thing I've done so far was chop up a gooseneck to match the look of some original ones that I've seen. I'll eventually polish it up and maybe get the valves professionally restored. (I've heard it's a easier/cheaper job than one might expect for rotary vs piston valves?)

I saw the other one that got posted yesterday from craigslist and its absolutely gorgeous!

That's actually the only one that I've seen so far besides mine that has traditional torsion spring linkages rather than the clock-spring linkages most of these older Soviet/Ukrainian horns tend to have.

I have no idea if thats a fair price or not but if so then I did better than I expected on mine!



On a side note, the seller of these tubas just added a best offer option!
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby jmviehmann » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:49 pm

Got it

I'm only gonna keep one of the kings if u wanna pm with offers for the others ill be super reasonable still want to make some $$
Last edited by jmviehmann on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:55 pm

Nice score! Wish i had the capital but even one would be out of my ballpark at the moment!

Are those kings 1135s?
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby jmviehmann » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:03 pm

I'm not sure I'll see if they have any other markings when they arrive. If anyone knows any more info on these horns let me know!!
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby groth » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:51 pm

That was a great deal, you can easily double your money.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby Tubajug » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:41 pm

They are King 2340's.
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Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bort » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:43 pm

That was a lot of tubas.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby saxophyte » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:13 pm

Looks like 3 fiberglass bell flares with no stack or tenon and a euphonium with no bell.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bigtubby » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:54 pm

roburt3 wrote:Haha Thank you, I love it, and got a wicked good deal on it through ebay!
So far I've just restored it to playable condition.(valves respond, but clank a bit, and all slides move but some are tight) The most extensive thing I've done so far was chop up a gooseneck to match the look of some original ones that I've seen. I'll eventually polish it up and maybe get the valves professionally restored. (I've heard it's a easier/cheaper job than one might expect for rotary vs piston valves?)

Usually, yes unless the bearings have worn to the point that the rotors are dragging/getting galled.

roburt3 wrote:I saw the other one that got posted yesterday from craigslist and its absolutely gorgeous!

That's actually the only one that I've seen so far besides mine that has traditional torsion spring linkages rather than the clock-spring linkages most of these older Soviet/Ukrainian horns tend to have.

I have no idea if thats a fair price or not but if so then I did better than I expected on mine!

I think that Dan Shultz and I are the odd men out around here who love clocksprings.

Yours and the CL one I think are newer models. Mine came from a guy in Ukraine for virtually no money and I love it. Never gor around to "after" pics sans dents but she's still plenty ugly. :D
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:01 pm

bigtubby wrote:I think that Dan Shultz and I are the odd men out around here who love clocksprings.

Yours and the CL one I think are newer models. Mine came from a guy in Ukraine for virtually no money and I love it. Never got around to "after" pics sans dents but she's still plenty ugly.


I think we may have purchased both of our from the same seller! I got mine for next to nothing as well; it was out of Latvia a couple years ago and the guy had a couple up for sale. The seller goes by goran0702 now if I'm not mistaken.

My linkages have more lateral wiggle in them than I'd imagine the clock spring levers would have. The lever pivot rod, springs, and most of the screws are also not factory original on mine though, so I'm hoping I can work that out eventually to reduce the "clacking"

I think the only other differences between ours is the fact that you've got what looks like the original neck (Kudos!), and you aren't missing the 2 valve slide "puller" like mine is, and the bell flare tapers are a little different.

They're big honkin' beasts and I love them!

I will say I've had a hell of a time trying to polish the nickel silver in the couple spots I've tried so far! I've got the inner bell looking pretty good, but it took at least a full day with a cotton buffing drill bit and Hagerty's silver polish.

So for now I'm happy wailing on it to keep my chops up, but I've got some long term plans brewing to keep improving it!
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bigtubby » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:20 am

roburt3 wrote:
bigtubby wrote:I think that Dan Shultz and I are the odd men out around here who love clocksprings.

Yours and the CL one I think are newer models. Mine came from a guy in Ukraine for virtually no money and I love it. Never got around to "after" pics sans dents but she's still plenty ugly.


I think we may have purchased both of our from the same seller! I got mine for next to nothing as well; it was out of Latvia a couple years ago and the guy had a couple up for sale. The seller goes by goran0702 now if I'm not mistaken.

My linkages have more lateral wiggle in them than I'd imagine the clock spring levers would have. The lever pivot rod, springs, and most of the screws are also not factory original on mine though, so I'm hoping I can work that out eventually to reduce the "clacking"

I think the only other differences between ours is the fact that you've got what looks like the original neck (Kudos!), and you aren't missing the 2 valve slide "puller" like mine is, and the bell flare tapers are a little different.

They're big honkin' beasts and I love them!

I will say I've had a hell of a time trying to polish the nickel silver in the couple spots I've tried so far! I've got the inner bell looking pretty good, but it took at least a full day with a cotton buffing drill bit and Hagerty's silver polish.

So for now I'm happy wailing on it to keep my chops up, but I've got some long term plans brewing to keep improving it!

1. Mine came from Alex Pogorilyy in Ukraine. I have had many great transactions with him and he packages instruments very well for shipment.

2. Using silver polish on nickel plating is a bit like trying to drive a nail using a screwdriver. Silver polish is chemically formulated to remove tarnish from silver. You might want to try one of: Flitz; chrome polish or an all purpose metal polish.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:49 am

That probably is a different seller than mine, not that it really makes any difference.

I'll use flitz next time I go at it and hopefully that will work better than the hagertys!

I am surprised to find some more of these horns floating around! I did more research than I'd care to admit when I first got it, and have only been able to piece together bits of info from a ton of different forums and a picture of one with a slightly different tubing configuration on Hornucopia.

I saw you mention this as a Leningrad/St Pete horn. I was able to translate the word Leningrad on my bell, but would this really "qualify" as a St Pete?
I know they are the same town, but were the makers of Leningrad horns the ones who eventually started manufacturing under the St Petersburg name? I've seen some early St. Pete Tubas that have similar tubing configurations, but does that mean the tooling used for both was probably the same?

No worries at all if you don't know the answers to those questions either! But I figured I'd ask since you're the first person I've met who also owns one of these horns!

Thanks,

Rob
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby groth » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:35 am

roburt3 wrote:That probably is a different seller than mine, not that it really makes any difference.

I'll use flitz next time I go at it and hopefully that will work better than the hagertys!

I am surprised to find some more of these horns floating around! I did more research than I'd care to admit when I first got it, and have only been able to piece together bits of info from a ton of different forums and a picture of one with a slightly different tubing configuration on Hornucopia.

I saw you mention this as a Leningrad/St Pete horn. I was able to translate the word Leningrad on my bell, but would this really "qualify" as a St Pete?
I know they are the same town, but were the makers of Leningrad horns the ones who eventually started manufacturing under the St Petersburg name? I've seen some early St. Pete Tubas that have similar tubing configurations, but does that mean the tooling used for both was probably the same?

No worries at all if you don't know the answers to those questions either! But I figured I'd ask since you're the first person I've met who also owns one of these horns!

Thanks,

Rob

The history page on the St. Petersburg instrument website mentions all the old Zimmerman inspired horns were actually built in the city of St. Petersburg for 100+ years and after the rise and fall of regimes, tools and tooling machines were lost etc.. Now everything is made in Western Ukraine with modern hand tools and qualified master builders but still engraved as "St. Petersburg" obviously and considered a "Russian" horn. There's a lot of disinformation out there and I would encourage you to visit their website if you are so inclined to learn more. But to answer your question, they all were built (Pre-fall of communism maybe early 1990's) in St. Petersburg then somehow were relocated to a better shop further south (the transition isn't too clear). I remember Vince Simonetti once telling me that the number that was engraved on those early horns' bells was actually the price (in communist Russia in old days). The only thing that was left to be desired was their old clock springs and linkages IMHO.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:58 pm

The history page on the St. Petersburg instrument website mentions all the old Zimmerman inspired horns were actually built in the city of St. Petersburg for 100+ years and after the rise and fall of regimes, tools and tooling machines were lost etc.. Now everything is made in Western Ukraine with modern hand tools and qualified master builders but still engraved as "St. Petersburg" obviously and considered a "Russian" horn. There's a lot of disinformation out there and I would encourage you to visit their website if you are so inclined to learn more. But to answer your question, they all were built (Pre-fall of communism maybe early 1990's) in St. Petersburg then somehow were relocated to a better shop further south (the transition isn't too clear). I remember Vince Simonetti once telling me that the number that was engraved on those early horns' bells was actually the price (in communist Russia in old days). The only thing that was left to be desired was their old clock springs and linkages IMHO.
[/quote]

Thanks for the website reference! It put everything together in a much clearer perspective. I hadn't thought to look at the St Pete site because I didn't think it was likely that mine was a St Pete based on how cheap I got it. I have read a bit about Zimmerman, and found some sweet sketches of his earlier helicons through hornucopia, but I did not know of his direct association with the origins of the St Pete factory.

So I suppose all I can safely say about mine was that it was produced by the Predecessor to the St Pete factory (Leningrad Wind Instrument Co. or something similar right?); and that it was made sometime before Leningrad became St Petersburg in 1991. If i had to guess I'd place it around the 50's or 60's but I have little confidence in that estimate. I know mine looks more like a Zimmerman than the early St Pete Helicons based on some of the pics I've seen, but I wonder how close the production of mine was to his death in 1923.

Thanks again for the Super helpful info!

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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bigtubby » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:49 pm

groth wrote:The history page on the St. Petersburg instrument website mentions all the old Zimmerman inspired horns were actually built in the city of St. Petersburg for 100+ years and after the rise and fall of regimes, tools and tooling machines were lost etc.. Now everything is made in Western Ukraine with modern hand tools and qualified master builders but still engraved as "St. Petersburg" obviously and considered a "Russian" horn. There's a lot of disinformation out there and I would encourage you to visit their website if you are so inclined to learn more. But to answer your question, they all were built (Pre-fall of communism maybe early 1990's) in St. Petersburg then somehow were relocated to a better shop further south (the transition isn't too clear). I remember Vince Simonetti once telling me that the number that was engraved on those early horns' bells was actually the price (in communist Russia in old days). The only thing that was left to be desired was their old clock springs and linkages IMHO.


It is great to find someone who is expert in these obscure pieces! May I have your opinion on the provenance and vintage of my unmarked BBb helicon (linked above)? The closest that I have seen is someone in the Horn-U-Copia Freak Jury who suggested Kiev and "Radioaparatur or Orpheus" but without any date references.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby groth » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:08 am

bigtubby wrote:
groth wrote:The history page on the St. Petersburg instrument website mentions all the old Zimmerman inspired horns were actually built in the city of St. Petersburg for 100+ years and after the rise and fall of regimes, tools and tooling machines were lost etc.. Now everything is made in Western Ukraine with modern hand tools and qualified master builders but still engraved as "St. Petersburg" obviously and considered a "Russian" horn. There's a lot of disinformation out there and I would encourage you to visit their website if you are so inclined to learn more. But to answer your question, they all were built (Pre-fall of communism maybe early 1990's) in St. Petersburg then somehow were relocated to a better shop further south (the transition isn't too clear). I remember Vince Simonetti once telling me that the number that was engraved on those early horns' bells was actually the price (in communist Russia in old days). The only thing that was left to be desired was their old clock springs and linkages IMHO.


It is great to find someone who is expert in these obscure pieces! May I have your opinion on the provenance and vintage of my unmarked BBb helicon (linked above)? The closest that I have seen is someone in the Horn-U-Copia Freak Jury who suggested Kiev and "Radioaparatur or Orpheus" but without any date references.

Very humbling and thank you, but honestly I am far from an "Expert" other than basic knowledge of the company. I have also bought from the guy in Ukraine, but have no idea where your Helicon might have come from, especially with no markings. Still leaning to old Leningrad, how many builders could there have been during those Communist times of the early 20th century?
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby bigtubby » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:15 pm

groth wrote: ...
Still leaning to old Leningrad, how many builders could there have been during those Communist times of the early 20th century?

As with autos and trucks I suspect that production was not limited to one physical plant and that satellite countries may have had their own facilities (likely based upon existing Russian designs/tooling).

Further I am pretty sure that my helicon is from the second half of the 20th Century, not early. Wolfgang Rabensteiner has a BBb helicon that looks identical to mine (with the exception that his is nickel plated). When I asked him about provenance, he said "I don't know, it is unmarked and I found it in a thrift shop".
https://youtu.be/9yilOvZyPXk

The input I've had (mainly from the Markneukirchen Museum and Horn-U-Copia forums) is that Leningrad/St.Petes were always marked.
Appearance/design can be deceiving: there seems to have been a rift in the space-time continuum in Soviet countries. A TARV cornet that also came from Alex Pogorilyy would seem to solidly belong to the 19th Century but it is clearly stamped "1985" ... I purchased several of these and they are all stamped with dates from 1963 - 1985, all came in fitted beige tolex cases and have gaudy, brightly colored mother of toilet seat finger buttons.
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Re: The best deal of 2018 so far (lot of 3 tubas)

Postby roburt3 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 pm

bigtubby wrote:
Wolfgang Rabensteiner has a BBb helicon that looks identical to mine (with the exception that his is nickel plated). When I asked him about provenance, he said "I don't know, it is unmarked and I found it in a thrift shop".

https://youtu.be/9yilOvZyPXk

I think you might have buried the lead there! You know Wolfgang Rabensteiner? Thats awesome! He's the guy who had the Python tuba made right? I've seen his helicon in this video and it looks fantastic all polished up! He wears it a little differently than I do mine (with the bell more horizontal, whereas I point the middle of my bow guard down as a reference, with the bell angled up a good bit more), How do you prefer to wear yours bigtubby?

His bell flare looks more similar to your horn bigtubby, but the linkages look to be torsion ones like mine. Perhaps it was made in between the times that our were? (trying to work out some kind of timeline here! haha) Also production probably was more dispersed like you mention so there's that too. Really just an amateur guess here!
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