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Strange combo for a 4th valve, functions as 2-3? What's up with that?

groth wrote:Strange combo for a 4th valve, functions as 2-3? What's up with that?

Fairly common on pre-WW2 German/Bohemian tubas. My Kaiser BBb has the 2+3 [major 3rd] 4th valve

Almost might as well be a 3 valve horn when taking modern literature in consideration. Odd.

groth wrote:Almost might as well be a 3 valve horn when taking modern literature in consideration. Odd.

Not really, the old [major 3rd] 4th valve is only a half-step higher than the modern [perfect 4th] 4th valve.

At least the 3 valve part. I’ve always needed to tune 1-3 more than I did 2-3 combos. All these real old German rotary horns were in 443hz anyway which made them even worse for modern American concert band music.

As noted, 2+3 was very common for older German tubas. My favorite player was set up that way ... easy enough to convert. In the original configuration the third and fourth tuning slide crooks lined up perfectly, I simply fabricated an extension to make it modern 1+3. Previous owner had apparently ordered it with a LP extension for the MTS. Wonderful tuba.

groth wrote: All these real old German rotary horns were in 443hz anyway which made them even worse for modern American concert band music.

Well, not all. My big old 'Bohemian' BBb was actually slightly flat in pitch when I got it. It would 'play up' to A=440 when warmed up and with the MTS all the way in. But I soon cut about 3/4" off the MTS circuit ends so I'd "bring it up to standard". And remember, the old American brasses from pre-WW2 tended to be high-pitch or low-pitch. The ones from that time period that are currently being played are usually modified in some way (MTS or mouthpipe changed) to play around A=440, with wiggle room.

groth wrote:At least the 3 valve part. I’ve always needed to tune 1-3 more than I did 2-3 combos.

You use the old M3 4th valve exclusively in the lower register just like you do with the modern P4 4th valve. I will say I DO use 1+3 for low C and F with a 1st slide pull as it responds better than 2+4 on the old Bohemian BBb. When I set my slides, I usually have my 3rd slide out a bit anyway on most contrabass tubas. Low F#/Gb comes out well on 4th valve; 1+4 plus 1st slide pull works great for low B and E natural. On the modern 4th valve, 2+4 is usually a little sharp for low B and E natural on a BBb tuba.

toobagrowl wrote:

groth wrote: All these real old German rotary horns were in 443hz anyway which made them even worse for modern American concert band music.

Well, not all. My big old 'Bohemian' BBb was actually slightly flat in pitch when I got it. It would 'play up' to A=440 when warmed up and with the MTS all the way in. But I soon cut about 3/4" off the MTS circuit ends so I'd "bring it up to standard". And remember, the old American brasses from pre-WW2 tended to be high-pitch or low-pitch. The ones from that time period that are currently being played are usually modified in some way (MTS or mouthpipe changed) to play around A=440, with wiggle room.

groth wrote:At least the 3 valve part. I’ve always needed to tune 1-3 more than I did 2-3 combos.

You use the old M3 4th valve exclusively in the lower register just like you do with the modern P4 4th valve. I will say I DO use 1+3 for low C and F with a 1st slide pull as it responds better than 2+4 on the old Bohemian BBb. When I set my slides, I usually have my 3rd slide out a bit anyway on most contrabass tubas. Low F#/Gb comes out well on 4th valve; 1+4 plus 1st slide pull works great for low B and E natural. On the modern 4th valve, 2+4 is usually a little sharp for low B and E natural on a BBb tuba.

Bigger Kaiser style Bohemian horns tend to be flat yes, the smaller 4/4 like Amati, Lignatone, and other names (especially older models) were in 443 hz. Just ask Uwe Schneider. 2+4 on my 70's King 1241 is dead on, but I suppose tu-ning (besides being an ancient Chinese art) is variable to the player's embouchure.

^ That's great that your 70's King 1241 BBb is "dead on" for low B and E with 2+4 combo. Do you have the 2nd or 4th slides out quite a bit? It's been a long time since I played a King 1241 (precurser to King 2341). But I will say most experienced players will admit the 2+4 combo tends sharp on most tubas, hence why many of them use 5+2+3 instead (if on a 5-valver) as it is better in tune.

@ bigtubby - nice pics of the old Shuster BBb I remember when that horn was for sale years ago, and then you bought it and fixed it up!

toobagrowl wrote:^ That's great that your 70's King 1241 BBb is "dead on" for low B and E with 2+4 combo. Do you have the 2nd or 4th slides out quite a bit? It's been a long time since I played a King 1241 (precurser to King 2341). But I will say most experienced players will admit the 2+4 combo tends sharp on most tubas, hence why many of them use 5+2+3 instead (if on a 5-valver) as it is better in tune.

@ bigtubby - nice pics of the old Shuster BBb I remember when that horn was for sale years ago, and then you bought it and fixed it up!

No not sharp at all, I tend to play flat so it balances it out I guess. But both 2 and 4 are pulled out 1/8'' maybe.. the Kings are so dialed in, it's scary.