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That's a B&S BBb Tuba.

Yeah, that's a VMI 103/2103 stencil, which is pretty much the same tuba as the old B&S PT-1 BBb. The difference being the 103/2103 model having a 17.7" bell, while the PT-1 had a 19" bell. Good tubas They don't all play the same, though.

^ No, the B&S PT-1 was basically the model 103, but with the 19" bell. I have the old Custom Music catalog with a picture and description of the PT-1. And I've played those models. You are talking about the model 101 'Sonora' with the smaller 16" bell. Besides the different bell and main tuning slide layouts, there are a couple other differences between those models. The 101 (Sonora, Weltklang, etc) is slightly taller than the 103/PT-1. And the 103/PT-1 has a slightly more open wrap, whereas the 101 has a tighter, more "Mirafone-style" wrap to it's bugle.

I'd personally put the B&S PT-1 / VMI 103 into the larger 4/4+ category with the Meinl-Weston 25 and Miraphone 187 BBb tubas. And I'd put the B&S 101 'Sonora' model with the 'regular' 4/4 category with the Meinl-Weston 20 and Miraphone 186 BBb tubas.

I know you know this, as you have worked on and sold those models of tubas

F.Schmidt and B&M both made these particular horns (in that auction) and stamped "Sanders Artist" on another version of it. I read on some German forum that the bells/bows were made in China and assembled in Germany with German valves. Good horn either way..

^ The F. Schmidt tuba listed here is a real-deal VMI/B&S 103 stencil. "Sanders" was a house brand under Custom Music -- first Cerveny-made tubas, later on Chinese-made tubas.

I think you and bloke are thinking of the B&S 101 'Sonora' model (and clones like the Mack 200), which is a different model than the one listed in this thread. Already explained the differences between the model 101 and 103. It can become confusing because not only were the real-deal German B&S 101 and 103 made under different stencil names, you also have the Chinese variant copies of the B&S 101.

But I agree, both models are nice, even the Chinese copy. The model 101 has more 'perfect' intonation; while the 103 has a broader sound, due to the larger 17.7" bell (19" bell on the old PT-1), and different wrap/main tuning slide/leadpipe.

Again, the Schmidt tuba here is a real VMI 103 stencil.

toobagrowl wrote:^ The F. Schmidt tuba listed here is a real-deal VMI/B&S 103 stencil. "Sanders" was a house brand under Custom Music -- first Cerveny-made tubas, later on Chinese-made tubas.

I think you and bloke are thinking of the B&S 101 'Sonora' model (and clones like the Mack 200), which is a different model than the one listed in this thread. Already explained the differences between the model 101 and 103. It can become confusing because not only were the real-deal German B&S 101 and 103 made under different stencil names, you also have the Chinese variant copies of the B&S 101.

But I agree, both models are nice, even the Chinese copy. The model 101 has more 'perfect' intonation; while the 103 has a broader sound, due to the larger 17.7" bell (19" bell on the old PT-1), and different wrap/main tuning slide/leadpipe.

Again, the Schmidt tuba here is a real VMI 103 stencil.

The "Sanders" was indeed a house brand for Custom music but depending on which model it was either fully made and assembled in China or it was just the Bell and bottom bow with Chinese brass and assembled at EDIT: Roland Meinl brass instruments division in Germany. I know, I owned one of the custom music ones and had the same questions and did deep fact checking on assembly origins. Sanders Imperial and Conservatory models are the student line (made in China). Sanders Artist MT-1 made at the Cerveny plant or mostly assembled at the EDIT: Roland Meinl Brass Instrument division plant in Germany based on which "Artist" model you had. You can see many of the differences just in the bracing between the Chinese made ones and the ones done in Europe.

Mark Finley wrote:I've owned both a sanders 68 and an amati 68. They are in every way imaginable, identical outside of the engraving on the bell. Both of my horns were Late 1970's models, so anything could have changed in later years. I know by the early 1990's, all Custom music brought to shows was the Tuba shaped object known as Chinese tubas of the day

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanders-Artist ... SwVFlT0p-y" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank This is one of the obviously Cerveny built "Sanders" stenciled horns (most likely as new as the 1990's or 2000's) for example. There was also a "Sanders Artist" made newer than 2000 as I mentioned that Roland Meinl had Chinese Bells/Bows imported then assembled with German Valves in Germany before that company went exclusively to percussion production. These were stenciled Sanders Artist (for Custom Music in the U.S.) and F. Schmidt as a local German seller of brass instruments (all made by Roland Meinl) these were not 100% Chinese, just the Bells and Bows with Chinese brass as I mentioned.

It’s gone now, anyway.