TubeNet

Because of the Announcement at the top are we to understand that Tubenet was NOT inclusive in the past?

I never consided the phrase "not inclusive" applying to this forum in 16 years of membership. Even non-tuba/euphonium, but music related, comments were answered or referred to an appropriate forum. I am left wondering if Tubenet is now going to be a forum for political comment as long as that can be wrapped around the tuba or euphonium.

Tubenet was a valuable part of the tuba/euphonium world for a long time. I don't see this change enriching the experience for anyone excpt those with an agenda which does not include the instrument.

All things change, all things come to an end. I never envisioned Tubenet taking this route.

It's a very nuanced thing. I also think a lot of it took place in General Chatter, where I never went, so I'm not entirely sure what happened, or when. However I know a lot of forums going through similar things. I never really felt that it was non-inclusive, but I also am pretty much a member of zero socially oppressed groups, so I would have trouble noticing in the first place.

Put me down as 'cautiously optimistic.'
I think a lot of it has to do with how heavy-handedly the new mod squad chooses to deal with things that are neither black nor white, but in that difficult grey area, and I understand that there will be a learning curve both for them and for us.
I do appreciate Farah re-opening General Chatter, as I probably spend half my time on TubeNet there.
Cheers,

I didn't know there was a "General Chatter."

I did know that my posts frequently disappear, always have, never understood why.

If it is ever because they were inappropriate, it would be fair to let me know, so I can apologize.

I didn't know there was a "General Chatter."

I did know that my posts frequently disappear, always have, never understood why.

If it is ever because they were inappropriate, it would be fair to let me know, so I can apologize.

Wade,
Yes, you're obviously a bad boy. I guess I am, as well, as "someone" went into my own tubenet emails and scrubbed/censored a few private messages between myself and a couple other tubenetters who were expressing concerns, not to mention all the posts that were 'purified' yesterday. As I've already stated, I'm guardedly optimistic, and willing to allow a learning curve on both ends. I do agree with timothy 42b that we should be notified as to why our posts are cleansed, and especially the emails.
Now I have a cinnamon roll to eat.
Tim

the elephant wrote:The new standards appear to include locking me out of the Repair Forum. I apologize to any who have been following my obviously non-inclusive DIY restoration threads; I am no longer allowed to access them. It must be because I am non-inclusive, despite anything the friends I made at the last BLM march I participated in might have to say about that. Or that last Pride march I joined in. Yep. Non-inclusive Wade. What a bad guy he is.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have a life to live and three horns on my benches that need attention. I won't be posting about them, though — you know, that whole punitive lockout thing for whatever manufactured reason might be given.
As is the case during this "New Cultural Revolution" we are experiencing, I have to take a screenshot in case of "thread sterilization"…

I'm locked out of the Repair forum, too, and I only ever read it. So I'm inclined to believe, for the moment, that it's a configuration problem that will be worked out eventually.

One side effect of the occasional database rollbacks is that my for-sale item is staying on the first page without me needing to bump it, so that's something.

tbonesullivan wrote:It's a very nuanced thing. I also think a lot of it took place in General Chatter, where I never went, so I'm not entirely sure what happened, or when. However I know a lot of forums going through similar things. I never really felt that it was non-inclusive, but I also am pretty much a member of zero socially oppressed groups, so I would have trouble noticing in the first place.

I appreciate your opinion however you are a comparitively new user and it appears your interests are centered on tuba/euphonium. I've been here a long time as has one of my friends below, we have both been active users. This does not appear "nuanced" to us, it appears heavy-handed authoritarianism.

I don't go to General Chatter, I'm not interested in chatter. I am interested in tuba/euphonium and have enjoyed those posts for years. I do not appreciate some change in direction to make this a political forum, if that's what it is.

I see general chatter is gone again. Hopefully it will be able to return once things settle down.

Looks like we had another database rollback? Some messages are gone from this topic.

But the Repair forum is on the index page again, so that's good.

I suspect the repair forum issue isn't purposeful, completely.

I never went to the Chatter sections. BUT, I have a problem with the potential to being censored or limited if it only serves to meet someone else's standard of what is "right". Yes, this is a private operation and I recognize it as such and there's probably a terms of service I agreed to when I created my account (AND IF THERE ISN'T THERE SHOULD BE).

However, I truly don't care if someone is straight, gay, trans, liberal, conservative, black, white, Asian, handicapped, Australian, Vulcan, or a Llama. When I make fun of things or people I make fun of everything equally. Everybody and everything sucks, equally, without bias or malice on my part. If I offend someone and they tell me I apologize. If they don't tell me, well, not much I can do. I'm old enough to know what is appropriate in a given setting and what isn't, but as a general rule of life I generally push back against people telling me what is appropriate for them and expecting me to conform. I know a dozen very profile tuba and euphonium players who I could get to vouch for me so I don't feel like I am too far off here.

Cautious optimism is the best way to describe how I feel right now. I already sense a tone change here that might not be to my liking.

Today has been a whirlwind and the past weekend an eye opening experience for me.

The Repair forum was in and out due to a server bug which hopefully has now been resolved.
Posts vanishing was due to several server restores trying to fix the Repair forum bug along with some other technical issues.
The General Chatter forum is gone.

Knock on wood things are more stable this evening and we can resume sharing musical experiences.

Thank you Sean and Farah for this. It's encouraging and inspiring to see a change for what was long due, even if some failed to see the need when it's always been there. Excited for the new inclusive TubeNet. Bravo.

Leto Cruise wrote:Thank you Sean and Farah for this. It's encouraging and inspiring to see a change for what was long due, even if some failed to see the need when it's always been there. Excited for the new inclusive TubeNet. Bravo.

**Excited for the new inclusive TubeNet.** ----------Would you care to mention how the "old" tubenet was not "inclusive"? I'd love to hear this.
Scottw

WoodSheddin wrote:Today has been a whirlwind and the past weekend an eye opening experience for me.

The Repair forum was in and out due to a server bug which hopefully has now been resolved.
Posts vanishing was due to several server restores trying to fix the Repair forum bug along with some other technical issues.
The General Chatter forum is gone.

Knock on wood things are more stable this evening and we can resume sharing musical experiences.

Bye.

There seems to be a remarkable lack of information on how TubeNet was previously non-inclusive.

GC wrote:There seems to be a remarkable lack of information on how TubeNet was previously non-inclusive.

The r / tuba thread where the tube net was called out has been moderated heavily, and the one post I saw linked to unfortunately is not active anymore, so I can't see it. I never really went in the general chatter forum, so maybe it was as bad as they say, but like you I would really like to see some concrete examples. The other two I am aware of are posts made by people who are now our two new moderators, which were closed for being "political" or something of that nature. However I also never saw those, but it does seem like they were purposely posted to test the "inclusiveness" of the tube net forum.

tbonesullivan wrote:

GC wrote:There seems to be a remarkable lack of information on how TubeNet was previously non-inclusive.

The r / tuba thread where the tube net was called out has been moderated heavily, and the one post I saw linked to unfortunately is not active anymore, so I can't see it. I never really went in the general chatter forum, so maybe it was as bad as they say, but like you I would really like to see some concrete examples. The other two I am aware of are posts made by people who are now our two new moderators, which were closed for being "political" or something of that nature. However I also never saw those, but it does seem like they were purposely posted to test the "inclusiveness" of the tube net forum.

Right before we went dark the first time, there was the developing exchange as to BLM being "political" vs "humanitarian". I don't like that the discussion was removed, because all I saw up to the point of blackout was, albeit tense, disagreement. I didn't see what finally caused the server to break. But it was clear there was not going to be any common understanding between both parties, what do we do about that?

One person's censorship is another person's moderation. Who's right? What does the group think about locking then quarantining a thread (the dialogue still within community standards) vs its complete removal? It's still there to review later after a certain number of days. Kind of against the "not tolerate(ing) intolerance" standard, but can there be some learning by leaving up opposing viewpoints when we revisit later from a calmer state-of-mind/different perspective? FWIW, I'm not trained in human resources or conflict resolution, so this is probably dumb idea.

There unfortunately has been some what we today would call online bullying over the years. I don't want to identify the user, but there was an up and comer who was active and was often met with antagonism. This forum's history goes back 20+ years to the 90s when the first BBS appeared. Folks that knew more than other folks over any given topic sometimes were quick to step in the discussion. For all I know I might have done some of that. Sorry if I did, I'll try harder.

The new mods have quite the job if they're going through all of the archives to ensure the new standards were met. This might not be part of the plan, but maybe they can publish a statistical analysis of the trends away from inclusiveness and diversity? We don't need the names of victims/offenders, but the data, reviewed by someone with certification in EEOC compliance, would clearly make the point more than anecdotes, which are all I've provided.

I'm just wondering what purging all of the old "suspected" and "supposed" racists and non-inclusive members here without any evidence of such is actually doing? Is it giving all the people involved in the Tuba Social Justice Initiative some sort of 1-up and vindication they accomplished something? Please help us understand what YOUR motivation for it is. Because I will tell you, and listen closely..it's not wiping away racism (since it didn't exist here anyway), if anything it's creating hatred and division between 2 groups of people within the community where there was none to begin with. You aren't changing anyone's mind (if they were racist or non-inclusive) by banning or forcing people away from this site.

The original members here that have been banned or left due to your politics and heavy handedness are already making another mirror forum to this under a different name and rebooting what we all had here to begin with and I can say assuredly you won't be getting membership there if you've made yourself already know here as opposition.They will vet any applicants very thoroughly to keep the riff-raff out (just as I suspect you have done so eloquently with TubeNet at this point, I know how the game is played). So... well done, you guys got your own forum now, created more hatred and division, didn't change anyone's mind about being a bad person, and now they are about to take back what you stole from them. How's them apples? This is all stuff that comes with Wisdom not college education. They literally outsmarted you guys at your own game.

WoodSheddin wrote:Today has been a whirlwind and the past weekend an eye opening experience for me.

...

If i can ask without offending you, what do you see now that your eyes are open?

I ask because much of what has been happening here doesn't make sense to me, and i would like to have some idea what's going on.

My impression is that you would know if anyone does.

No actual need or hurry for a response. I can't tell if the whirlwind is still going or not, and i definitely am not important enough to be kept in any loop.

Also feel free to change to a more personal (or general) form of response as you deem appropriate.

Anyway, here's to hoping that things work out well in the end.