Who needs an education?

[windshieldbug]

Kinda reminds me of one of my worst (both behavior and playing) music students who came up to me and told me he believed he was a direct descendent of the Biblical David because of "all his musical talent" despite the fact that he admitted there wasn't a drop of Hebrew blood in his lineage.

Must have been descended from David's "liar", then

(Chuck: With coda or without?)

[RyanSchultz]

It might help us find some solutions by attempting to isolate some of the causes of this problem. While some could be governmental or political, many might not be.

Motivation, in my opinion, is a key to unlocking this puzzle. I've spent a lot of time talking to students about the direct correlation between school/training and future income. If a child is not motivated, s/he will probably falter.

Sense of entitlement is also probably an issue in many areas.

Lack of resources and mentors could be another issue (read "Savage Inequalities"). . .

This should concern everyone.

[Rick Denney]

I've told my wife that once I get close to "retirement age" I want to take up welding as a hobby. I figure I could work part-time at it (30 years from now) and make a full-time wage.

You speak for me. I've asked for a welder for my birthday, heh, heh.

Rick "who may not wait 30 years, however" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Allow me to make a non-political observation--which is where the original post was headed anyway.

When I attended high school, there were two identifiable cirriculum tracks: college-bound and non-college-bound. While the taint of snobbery was starting to manifest itself in that the "college bound" folks were looked on as "better", both tracks received the funding of the school district.

Coiuld someone who graduated on the "non college-bound" cirriculum attend a university? Sure--but he'd find himself (or herself) taking some extra prep courses. But then, cirricula varied widely between schools back then. The rich kids from Waukegan had exposure to some calculus in thier math classes, while trigonometry was as good as it got for us. In the long run, it didn't make much of a difference

Now, it seems that high schools assume that either you're college-bound or you're a dropout.

That has to stop.

It's time to bring back the crafts apprenticeship system and present it as a viable career choice in our schools. Not everyone (thankfully) is suited to sit behind a desk, pushing a mouse around.

[LoyalTubist]

Right, Chuck. We need more mechanics, barbers, artisans, and other skilled professionals, which need a short vocational course to get their jobs done.

[ken k]

very true,
and unfortunately most of the people going into the trades are those who were shipped off to vo-tech because they couldn't "hack it" in the regular school. Unfortunately they can't really "hack it" anywhere. So you end up with many people in the trades who don't give a sh*t about the quality of their work or people you wouldn't want to hire to do a job. We had the hardest finding a decent, polite well spoken carpenter when we were looking for someone to finish off our basement.

Same goes with auto mechanics. if you can find a good, decent, well-spoken articulate person to fix your car use him. they are few and far between.

My father-in-law owns an electromagnet/winding company. he is always lamenting the fact that he can't find anyone who wants to work, let alone wants to do good work and show up for work everyday. I can't imagine being a supervisor/manager type for a McDonalds or some other fast food type place that normally hires teens to work. Trying to get all the positions filled and schedules made must be an exercise in futlity.

We really need to promote the vocational/technical programs in schools in order to attract some intelligent people into the trades, not simply the "leftovers"

I try to tell my son about some of these trades rather than going to college. I don't know if it is sinking in or not.

ken k

[tubeast]

In Germany primary schools will sort out who is (after their fourth year in school) eligible for what school system.
(There are, basically, three of them: Hauptschule, Realschule, and Gymnasium, with, according to their definition, rising level of smartness required to succeed in them).
Hauptschule will end after the ninth grade, Realschule after tenth, and Gymnasium after 13th grade. A graduation from the latter gives you the possibility to attend university.

It IS possible to move on to the "higher" leveled school system if your graduation from the "lesser" school is good enough, so you´re not necessarily "screwed" if your qualities as a scholar develop AFTER primary school.

Now think of this: by the time a "Gymnasiast" gets out of school only to enter the next for some six years, the "Real"-people will have finished their 3-year apprenticeship in a craft.
By the time the "Gym"-people start earning money, the "Real"-people may have taken additional courses to become a certified "Master" of their craft. (The "Master" certificate allows you to setup your own business as a member of that craft´s "Innung", and train apprentices yourself).

In case you don´t enter a soaring career as a university graduate, (which by no means can be taken for granted)there´s no chance you will make up for those six years in full pay. Depending on your job, your beginning salary may be equal to the "Master´s"

Choosing a craft as your profession may not be a bad idea at all.

Some time in the late sixties (AFAIK) another type of school was developed: "Gesamtschule" (Combination of all three systems as described above). The intention was to make people more "equal" in their chances to go to university.

I personally don´t think this helped raise the reputation of non-university-careers.

[UDELBR]

In Germany primary schools will sort out who is (after their fourth year in school) eligible for what school system.
(There are, basically, three of them: Hauptschule, Realschule, and Gymnasium, with, according to their definition, rising level of smartness required to succeed in them).

This is also prevalent in other parts of Europe as well. There's a big hairy test all kids take at age 11 that will pretty much set the course for your life (rocket scientist / gas-pump attendant). While tubeast is correct in that it's not impossible to get passed up to a better school, it's unlikely, and costs years to catch up.

My point: not all kids have hit their stride by age 11. Others blossom at 13 or 15, and by then, they've already been shuffled off to "bathroom attendant school" as a result of this 'tracked' education system. Not ideal.

[corbasse]

This is also prevalent in other parts of Europe as well. There's a big hairy test all kids take at age 11 that will pretty much set the course for your life (rocket scientist / gas-pump attendant). While tubeast is correct in that it's not impossible to get passed up to a better school, it's unlikely, and costs years to catch up.

My point: not all kids have hit their stride by age 11. Others blossom at 13 or 15, and by then, they've already been shuffled off to "bathroom attendant school" as a result of this 'tracked' education system. Not ideal.

It's not all as grim as you say. The test is not 1 ultimate decisionpoint, but more of an aid in assessing somones strenghts and weaknesses and giving an advice which school system to attend. At least in Holland where I went to school the first few years of secondary school are mostly joint classes, so there's some time to correct mistakes, filter out those who messed up their test because of stress or some other reason and for late blossomers to develop.
Personally, my test results said I should attend the lowest degree. After the first year in secondary school my teachers basically asked me what the h@%& I was doing there and sent me to the highest which I finished without major problems.

Actually, the opposite of what you describe happens more often: most parents send their kids to the "highest possible"* tier of the system regardless of the outcome of the test thinking their kids are geniusses, as we all do. Then the kids trickle down to the level where they are able to cope with.

*Unfortunately, directions with loads of learn-by-heart stuff (Latin, Greek, etc.) are considered by too many to be "higher" than directions which focus on physical skils or insight, instead of just "different".

[Rick Denney]

In Germany primary schools will sort out who is (after their fourth year in school) eligible for what school system.

The only beef I have with this system is that the schools do the sorting, rather than the parents or the students themselves. Sometimes kids don't find their desire to excel at academics until later than the 4th grade. But in the German system (and it's the same in many other countries) they will be consigned to that fate and will have great difficulty overcoming it.

Many of our greatest geniuses didn't find their true calling until MUCH later. I can think of two acknowledged geniuses who had real difficulty in primary school, to the point where their parents were told they were rather dull-witted (Ansel Adams and C.S. Lewis). In both cases, their parents, unwilling to accept the pronouncement, found alternative schooling with private tutors. I suppose that is a sort of apprenticeship in the academic arts.

The purpose of publicly funded school is to produce a population educated enough to be able to read and evaluate who and what to vote for in our democratic system. Beyond that, I don't see much government interest in schooling. So it has become a repository for all the social engineering agendas that have been promulgated over the years, from all manner of special interests good and bad, including the baby-boomer parental belief that everyone should go to college and work in an office so they can afford that suburban McMansion that they themselves think is the mark of success.

The notion of an education as providing a person with a trade rather than a comprehensive knowledge of the world is part of the problem.

Rick "who thinks the 60's college boom is part of what is motivating the current situation" Denney

[tubeast]

Oh, I guess I should have been more clear on the sorting business:
Actually, the headmistress of the class will write a report leading to a RECOMMENDATION as to a school system most beneficial for the kid. This is based on grades, but on social skills and learning techniques and all kinds of aspects that might play a role here. It´s not just some GPA.

More often than not, this evaluation report can be trusted.
I wouldn´t have any problem at all if the Gesamtschule simply offered flexibility to change the level of education. Just like I experienced in American HS: there are all kinds of different levels of courses one can take. (There´s algebra 5, and then there´s calculus.)
The horrible thing is that the SCHOOL is supposed to produce a certain percentage of kids with grades high enough to send them to university. (Regardless of the talents of the average student). Think about it, and you´ll come up with a technique how to do that.
This encourages students to enter universities (after all, they graduated after the 13th year in school) who should better have chosen a different path in life.

[windshieldbug]

So it has become a repository for all the social engineering agendas that have been promulgated over the years, from all manner of special interests good and bad, including the baby-boomer parental belief that everyone should go to college and work in an office so they can afford that suburban McMansion that they themselves think is the mark of success.

No Child Left Alone!

[Chuck(G)]

Without revamping our current educational system, we might start by admitting that we've got a dropout program and provide some outplacement assistance. As in "Okay, you're determined to leave school. Let's see if we can get you set up in a crafts apprenticeship program."

Instead, we just let them drop off the face of the earth, with the admonition that there's always a GED.

[Lew]

...
The notion of an education as providing a person with a trade rather than a comprehensive knowledge of the world is part of the problem.

Rick "who thinks the 60's college boom is part of what is motivating the current situation" Denney

I do think that there is a place in our educational system for providing a person with a trade. High school programs that provide trade skills can be valuable for those people for whom college is not appropriate, or necessary. The years before high school should be spent gaining a broad knowledge of basic skills and knowledge, such as math, language, history.

Although I can see benefits of the German/European system mentioned, I know from first hand experience the dangers of early "tracking." Although up until 6th grade I was in all of the "top" classes and got good grades, I was never a very good speller, nor very good at English grammer. As a result I was put in one of the "lower" level English classes in high school. After one week in class with the jocks and greasers (this was 1970) I refused to go back. My parents and I met with the principal and the school reluctantly moved me into a higher class. There was no way I was going to learn a thing in the first section to which I was assigned. It was essentially glorified babysitting. If I had stayed there I would have been relegated to similar classes for the rest of high school. Tracking would have been a self fulfilling prophesy. After being moved my teacher worked with me on my weaknesses, but could see that I had the capability to be successful. I ended up with a 90+ percentile verbal SAT score. Since that experience I have not been a fan of tracking, especially based on early assessments.

[Albertibass]

At my high school in Maryland, the dropout rate is out of control. this past month, 8 of my friends that i have grown up with dropped out. This is getting me mad i guess, because i dont like to see it. They all claim to have a "plan" but that involves more hours at BK, and then night school to get their GED. Then when you tell them what they are doing is not smart, they get mad, and accuse you of trying to ruin there lives.

and other than those 8, there have been many more at my school all of a sudden dropping out.

[TubaRay]

At my high school in Maryland, the dropout rate is out of control. this past month, 8 of my friends that i have grown up with dropped out. This is getting me mad i guess, because i dont like to see it. They all claim to have a "plan" but that involves more hours at BK, and then night school to get their GED. Then when you tell them what they are doing is not smart, they get mad, and accuse you of trying to ruin there lives.

and other than those 8, there have been many more at my school all of a sudden dropping out.

Sounds like a case of "know-it-all." This debilitating disease will sometimes strike persons of any age, sex, or whatever. It is much more prevalent among the young who seem to know more than any of the rest of us.

If you, as a young person, have not been stricken with this disease, run from it. It can ruin your life and have a very negative effect on those around you. Believe me. It is okay not to know everything.

In case you're wondering how I know about this, let's just say that I have been there. I have also been teaching high school for some twenty years. I believe it is impossible to avoid witnessing this in that many years amongst the afflicted.

[RyanSchultz]

This is a great "thread." It would be sad *if* we low brass folks were the ones having the most substantial debate about these problems.

I'll "weigh in more" later.

[tubatooter1940]

My wife and I planned to have 5 or 6 kids. We both can handle a gang of people at home. I stupidly convinced her that we could college educate two at our (then) income level and we stupidly agreed to keep it to two.
Turned out neither of them wanted or needed to go to college.
Hey, we could've had more kids.
It would've been fun makin' 'em too.

[XtremeEuph]

heh I bet its always fun............