Young Players..

[passion4tuba]

Like athletes, does it seem that the brass player has "evolved" over the generations? What i mean to say is, in the NFL for example, players or much more athletic than they were 20-30 years ago. Does anyone think this corralates with the brass players of old and the current generation of younger players today?

[windshieldbug]

As brass player continue to evolve, so do the instruments they are capable of playing. Look at the progression of largest common tubas.

150 years ago - ophicleide
125 years ago - small Eb
100 years ago - medium Eb/ small BBb
75 years ago - medium BBb
50 years ago - big BBb
25 years ago - orchestral CC
now - 6/4 orchestral CC
25 years - ?

[LoyalTubist]

I don't think so... Not in California, anyway... Most of the school systems are starting instrumental music later and later... When I started, 40 years ago, instrumental training started in fourth grade... The school district where I work, when I started with it six years ago, started the kids in fifth grade... That was when we had sixth graders in elementary school... Two years later, sixth graders were put in middle school... Now instrumental music instruction starts in sixth grade... No elementary schools in the district have instrumental music, except maybe Flutophones® taught by teachers who understand them.

[THE TUBA]

I don't know about this trend... I' pretty out of shape myself...


I think it easier today to create better, younger tubists than, say 25 or 50 years ago. Am I saying that the young tubists today are better than the young tubists of the past? No, but the tuba recources are much more accessible today than they ever have been- {Internet}. Today there are tons of great tuba CDs out and lots of great instructional books for tubists, or bools that can greatly help tubists. Young tubists today also have more (tuba) role models than ever before.
The new crop of band composers (Holsinger, Ticheli, Barnes, Hazo, etc.) seem to orchestrate the tuba part fairly justly in their band works (at least more so than their predecessors), so the demand for good tubists in high school band programs is greater now than, say 50 years ago.

[Will]

I just think the standard is being raised every year. Today's musicians are emulating those who they respect in sound, style, or overall musicianship. And with the improving technology that seems to come up every year, these young hungry musicians are taking advantage of it.

[fpoon]

Likewise, you toss Jim Brown in todays NFl, and he'd destory guys.

Same deal with Ted William or Hank Aaron. You don't think they could hit off random dude who can throw 90 mph.?

I think the true greats in anything, be it sports, music, literature, etc. will always be great, but I think what is considered "the norm" for any skill gets raised with every generation.

Sorta blows, kids have enough pressure on them as is...

[Chuck(G)]

I'm a believer in the "You can't fit more than a cubic foot of marbles into a box that holds a cubic foot" (i.e. common sense) logic.

So, while young players may be getting more proficient on their particular instruments, they are doing so sacrificing breadth for depth. It's like any other field. At one time, it was possible for a single person to know everything there was to know about physics. It's not humanly possible now.

How much opera can a young trumpet player identify and sing, or can the same player identify a Beethoven string quartet? How about playing the viola as well as trumpet?

We live in the era of specialization.

[windshieldbug]

How about playing the viola as well as trumpet?

I wouldn't wish EITHER on my best enemy...

[Rick Denney]

Are you saying that players only get better because the instruments get better??

...
I'll relate this to athletics as well. People say that Tiger Woods is the best golfer to ever live. I say no he isn't (nothing against Tiger...he's a fine golfer, just not the best ever) Anyway, I say if you take Bobby Jones (or even Jack Nicklaus) and train them with the technology of today they would at worst be of equal calliber as Tiger Woods...

On the first point, that's not how I read it. What he said that was the largest instrument good players expect to play well has increased over the years. Take your average orchestral tuba player from, say, 1890, and while he might have been musical on a small Eb tuba, he might be somewhat intimidated by a modern grand orchestral tuba. I read it as an example of how the bar had been raised.

But I think that trend tracks another trend, which is the desire to play louder and louder. That trend affects all acoustical musicians, and I think it is motivated by the desire (need?) to compete with amplified music.

On your second point, remember that Tiger Woods's competition has access to the same training methods and equipment that Tiger does. And the competition is much more consistently competitive. Bobby Jones didn't face the same consistent competition by any means. Even Jack Nicklaus didn't. As we have also seen in other sports (and not just sports), domination is more difficult now than it was in the past. For a modern skill-based performer to be dominant is a greater achievement than it was.

Every now and again, prodigies come along in any field who just blow away the previous standards of performance. After them, everyone learns from their methods and measures themselves against that new standard. And the fame that comes with that domination attracts others with superior talent into the field in the first place. Think of Lance Armstrong versus Eddy Merckx. There is no doubt that Merckx had a harder life (notwithstanding cancer, of course) than Armstrong has had--he raced in many more races a year and was superior in many different kinds of races. Is he a better cyclist than Armstrong? We will never know. But now that Armstrong has been so dominant, he has brought cycling closer to the mainstream of American life, which will make it less uncool for new athletes of superior talent to choose that sport.

Rick "who thinks tuba playing requires superior musical story-telling before improved technique will be of any use" Denney

[windshieldbug]

As brass players continue to evolve, so do the instruments they are capable of playing. Look at the progression of largest common tubas.

Are you saying that players only get better because the instruments get better??

If you are I have to disagree...I believe that if the best players from 150 years ago were somehow transported to today and were trained on the instruments of today then they would be the best players of today...

I'll relate this to athletics as well. People say that Tiger Woods is the best golfer to ever live. I say no he isn't (nothing against Tiger...he's a fine golfer, just not the best ever) Anyway, I say if you take Bobby Jones (or even Jack Nicklaus) and train them with the technology of today they would at worst be of equal calliber as Tiger Woods...

I was not saying the instruments are getting "better", only that they are undenyably getting bigger. Your concept of "better" may be very different than mine... BUT

If the best players from 150 years ago were somehow transported to today and were trained on the instruments of today then they may or may not be the best players of today. All that was proven was that they were the masters of the instruments that were available at that time. The instruments have changed significantly. Perhaps some would still flourish. But also perhaps, some may not be able to supply all of the changing physical requirements. Perhaps some would find the musical language too easy in comparison and suffer mental burnout. Perhaps some might find themselves prone to Carpal Tunnel. Perhaps some might play SO much, they would find themselves victims of consumption...

In fact, what I was trying to point out is that things DO NOT evolve in a vacuum. Except supernovas.

[MaryAnn]

With increasing population, there are more people of a given talent who are around. So instead of one or two with talent level "X" you might have 20 or 30. The number of jobs hasn't gone up ... in fact it probably has gone down, so it appears that the jobs are more competetive. Modern compositions often make higher technical demands, so the audition process has to filter for that as well as for musicality.

What amazes me most about society today is that there are more of all the extremes....more extremely talented kids who work their butts off to improve, and more lazy-a$$ kids who won't even graduate high school. Of course there are more in the middle too, but what we notice are the ones on the ends of the spectrum. On both ends they are competing with each other, pushing each other to higher (or lower) levels of achievement.

MA

[TubaRay]

What amazes me most about society today is that there are more of all the extremes.... On both ends they are competing with each other, pushing each other to higher (or lower) levels of achievement.
MA

This is simultaneously an encouraging and a depressing thought. True either way, but both encouraging and depressing. I guess this will continue for the forseeable future.