School Instrument Savvy

[Chuck(G)]

A couple of the local middle school band directors have been complaining that they don't have funds for instruments. I asked one about it and his response was that if he just had another $1500, he could get the trumpet and flute he needed to complete his band.

As a skinflint, his comment floored me. $1500 for a middle-school flute and trumpet? Yup-$700 for the flute and $800 for the trumpet.

I dug through my nationwide classifieds and found about 60 American-made flutes, mostly Armstrongs, but some Gemeinhardt and Emerson models for under $200. Even with a repad and tune-up, this comes nowhere close to the $700 Yamaha the BD wanted. There was even a Armstrong solid-silver model 90 for $350.

I'll leave the $800 trumpet issue alone, since most of you know what a used student trumpet goes for.

My question is this--are some teachers simply unaware of what's out there?

[Chuck Jackson]

Chuck,
Although I can't speak for the said director, in Clark County you have to buy off an approved bid list and can't deviate from it. I have to seriously question the guy, though. I don't think that the approved bid list has anything anywhere near that expensive in Clark County. If they could buy used, most band directors in town would be snatching up every Conn 20K Sousaphone on the planet instead of having to buy the approved Yamaha's, which, IMHO, make great planters.

Chuck

[Dan Schultz]

A couple of the local middle school band directors have been complaining that they don't have funds for instruments. I asked one about it and his response was that if he just had another $1500, he could get the trumpet and flute he needed to complete his band.

My goodness! On what planet does the school provide trumpets and flutes? Around here, only the very expensive instruments like tubas, baritones, bassoons, bass clarinets, etc. are provided by the school systems. I work with several local school band directors and they are quite happy to send the kids (and their parents) to me looking for used 'brand name' instruments. I sell lots of quality instruments for about the same money as they would spend on the imports sold at Wal-Mart.

[MaryAnn]

Chuck,
Although I can't speak for the said director, in Clark County you have to buy off an approved bid list and can't deviate from it.
Chuck

Since I'm not in the school music business, I didn't realize there had to be an "approved bid list" for band instruments (although I am aware of it wrt things like electrical substation equipment.) Who makes up such a list, and how do people get on it, and why can't the band director just buy the cheapest thing he can find with the money he has to spend? I do understand the list is there supposedly to prevent kickbacks, but also understand that there may be politics involved. Educate me on the specifics of approved bid lists for band instruments? Or did I figure it out already?

MA

[Joe Baker]

I will buy whatever I want for my kids regardless of what some asshole band director says...

I don't think he means parents are required to buy from the list; just band directors spending tax money. And I wouldn't mind them having such a list, as long as there's some procedure for getting approval to go outside the procedure on a case-by-case basis.

In my son's band, the boosters cooperate with the band director in such a way that any item that is better gotten used is bought by the boosters rather than the band.
_______________________
Joe Baker, who is amazed how many parents don't have a clue where to look or what to buy used, so they pay FULL RETAIL.

[ThomasDodd]

[who is amazed how many parents don't have a clue where to look or what to buy used, so they pay FULL RETAIL.

I cannot think of any cases where a non pro would need a new instrument, even at "discounted" prices. Perhaps some new parts, but never a whole new instrument.

Once you've played and become proficient, maybe. Like in high school or college for band instrumnets. Then you know how to actully shop for a horn, and find the correct one. Same for school owned horns, brass in particular. A goo used horn can be fixed up much more cost effectively.

Considering the number of 60+ year old horns that are played, why would a new horn be worthy while? What really wears on a horn other than physical damage? If looks matter, only the bell would need refinished, since the rest of the horn is not visible. Valves can be replated, sn tubing replaced as you go. Only reasons I see not to fix a used horn, in a school at least, is major damage or valve casing wear.

I'm I off base or is it the "system" wasting money again?

-Thomas "who has never owned a new horn in 20 years, and only ever played 1"

[Dan Schultz]

I will buy whatever I want for my kids regardless of what some asshole band director says...

I don't think he means parents are required to buy from the list; just band directors spending tax money. _______________________
Joe Baker, who is amazed how many parents don't have a clue where to look or what to buy used, so they pay FULL RETAIL.

I've heard of such 'lists'. Around here, there is only one large retailer that has most of the school business 'sewed up'. They meet with the parents at 'music nights' at the schools and more-or-less dictate what parents have to purchase.... in the interest of keeping the band 'properly blended', of course. Sometimes the band directors issue lists of 'approved brands and models'... in which case the parents are free to look for used 'deals' of such brands and models. Face it... most parents don't know their a** from a hole in the ground when it comes to band instruments.

I had a parent a couple of weeks ago who I knew to be on a very tight budget. I sold him a descent trombone for a little under $100. I threw in a Kelly (plastic) mp. A couple of days later the parent called to see if I have any used metal mp's I would sell because the band teacher wouldn't let his son use the plastic one. The band teacher claimed the kid sounded 'different' in the section. For Pete's sakes!... this was a sixth grader! The kid would not have been playing at all had it not been for finding an instrument his parents could afford! I wonder how many potential great musicians are being passed over because of the criteria of some band teachers.

[ThomasDodd]

I threw in a Kelly (plastic) mp. A couple of days later the parent called to see if I have any used metal mp's I would sell because the band teacher wouldn't let his son use the plastic one. The band teacher claimed the kid sounded 'different' in the section. For Pete's sakes!... this was a sixth grader!

Have you had previous experience with this guy?

Either way, sound like he needs to have his priorities straightened out.
It's not like any group of 6th graders is going to sound the same anyway.

I have Kelly and Bach 6-1/2AL. My wife and son could not tell the difference in them (or the 12C I have). She could detect a difference in my Conn Helleberg and my Deck tuba mouthpeices, but not much.

I doubt anyone exceptb that "director" is likely to hear the difference in this group, including the group itself. At least for the next 2 years.

[Chuck(G)]

Just before school started, I was speaking with another middle-school BD who was elated because he received approval to purchase a single YEP-321 euph. I told him that for the same money, he could have purchased two Weril H980s--every bit as suitable for school playing.

The funny thing is that the dealder selling the 321 is also a DEG dealer and didn't mention the Werils at all.

[Chuck(G)]

"voting-by-mail"...etc? various methods of facilitating folks more easily voting more than once.

...again, simply ways to offer easier access to institutionalized cheating.

So , Joe, since I live in the only exclusively "vote by mail" state in the union, how do you back up your statement? (facts and figures directly related to Oregon elections, not opinions)

http://www.uhavavote.org/votingguide/votebymail.html

[Chuck(G)]

"How does anyone at the election commission know who mailed in your 'vote'?"

Simple enough--if there's a question, the ballot envellope is signed and the signature must match the signature on the voter's registration card. I suppose a clever crook could figure out how to forge my otherwise illegible signature.

But no ballots are delivered to graveyards, empty lots and the middle of a river, as in some of the other states. And none are forwarded.

[Matt G]

Here he is. Currently, he's under investigation by the FBI for some money stunt (he was actually over in another state pulling this stunt off when a storm came through a year and a half ago and knocked out nearly 100% of the electricity here...nearly a million folks).

Joe, you got no idea about crooked mayors in Memphis.

This guy has yours beat:

Vincent “Buddyâ€

[Joe Baker]

BTW, he is a Republican if you didn't notice. He also has had ties with the mafia. What an upstanding fellow.

I have deleted my original comments out of deference to our host, as this thread is not supposed to be politics. Suffice to say that your insinuation that Republicans as a group would support or condone illegal activities could prompt effective partisan rebuttal.
___________________________
Joe Baker, who is showing restraint for once.

[Matt G]

Suffice to say that your insinuation that Republicans as a group would support or condone illegal activities could prompt effective partisan rebuttal.

Joe, I think his point was only that both sides have crooks in their midst. I didn't take it as pointing to all Rs.

Thanks, Bill.

I am not attacking all Republicans. Just one. The fact that he has had some underworld ties just shows that all parties are guilty of having a few skeletons in their closet.

[Joe Baker]

I am not attacking all Republicans. Just one. The fact that he has had some underworld ties just shows that all parties are guilty of having a few skeletons in their closet.

I appreciate and accept the clarification. No doubt, EVERY group, good and bad, is occasioned by rascals. The integrity of a group is shown by how they react to the rascals found within their midst.

Interesting twist to the topic supposedly being discussed.

Hey, we're a twisted bunch!
_________________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks the real subject had played itself out.

[ThomasDodd]

Interesting twist to the topic supposedly being discussed.

Not surprising though. The whole "approved" list and even school supplied instruments topic is politics. I'd even be wary of a "recommended" list, think there's a high probability of kickbacks in that list.

I'm from a small school in a small town. Our beginning ban had only a bass drum supplied. All other instruments were supplied by the student. The list of instruments was small. Flute, clarinette, alto sax, trumpet, trombone, and snare drum. You either supplied your own, or could rent one fo 1/2 the year. Most rentals were Yamaha. After the rental, if you wanted to contuinue you could buy it, or get one from another source. This was 1984, and I bought a 72 Olds trombone used. No one even implied that we should get a $1000 instrument. I don't remember other horns untill later. The high school owned several "expensive" horns, like tubas, baritones, other saxes, pics, "French" horns, marching drums and other percussion.

When I switched to tuba the school had a bari-sax, and 2 tubas. One tuba was a Conn (which I played) and a Yamaha (one year older). The shool owned stuff ranged in age over 40 years, and 15 different brands. We had little money, so took what could be had. Few students had new horns untill they were juniors or seniors, when the "great" players got expensive horns from their parents as gifts or they has saved up for one. Most of us went to college with the same horn we got in 6th grade, and had used the whole time.

We constantly placed at marching and concert contests during those 4 years. Any requirements on the brand of horns, mouthpiece sizes, and othe such is pure politics.

If I had been required to buy a new trombone, I would not have been able to continue. And I would never have been able to buy a tuba. Hell, as a non-music major in college, I just got a beat up tuba last year, 7 years after college.

[ThomasDodd]

It never hurts to quietly ask the right person or do what you know is right if you can get away with for the kids..

In many places that would get him fired. One of the problems of the government controlling schools. Private schools re quicker to spend funds more wisely.