Rand Paul using Rush music - copyright violation?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Linky

What do you guys think? Does playing a band's music at an outdoor political rally without the band's permission constitute a copyright violation? Are most music groups/bands EVEN AWARE when their music is used at such an event? Should they care? Or even sue?

I'm assuming that Rand Paul or his campaign legally owns a copy of the music in question - so what are the limits involved in using it? If I'm in charge of providing the music for a "mixer/get to know each other" event sponsored by the OSU Young Republicans, for example, should I make sure and contact all of the groups whose music I might or might not play over the speakers to make sure it's "OK" with them? Does the Ramada Inn corporation get approval for any music they play in their lobbies or their elevators?

This could be an interesting discussion.

[The Big Ben]

Linky

What do you guys think? Does playing a band's music at an outdoor political rally without the band's permission constitute a copyright violation? Are most music groups/bands EVEN AWARE when their music is used at such an event? Should they care? Or even sue?

Rush is a Canadian band so I don't know if they would or would not approve or license their music for a political campaign. The band would have a point if the music was somehow being used as a theme much as they would have the same point if it were used commercially.

During the last presidential campaign, the GOP used Heart's "Barracuda" as a theme to introduce Sarah Palin, who had the nickname of Barracuda when she played high school basketball. Ann and Nancy Wilson, as leaders of the Seattle band and composers of the music, threatened asking for an injunction to stop the practice and the GOP stopped using the music. Would have been interesting if the matter had made it to court.

[rocksanddirt]

use at political rally's is one of those grey 'fair use' areas.

Generally, use of recorded copywrited music in a public place of business constitutes a 'performance' by the artist and they get paid (like the radio amount)/have option to deny the performance.

What are political rallys?

[TMurphy]

Personally, I think unless Paul is making money by using Rush's music, he should be free and clear...provided the tracks being played are owned legally, of course. I can understand the band not wanting to be associated with a political movement they don't believe in...imagine if President Obama tried to use Ted Nugent songs at campaign events.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Most of the time, sadly, both major parties-Democrat and Republican, use canned music. Democrats tend to use union printers for campaign lit.,etc. but unless it is donated, the union live music or for that matter just live music is often overlooked--as you see in bars, they will advertise 'Live DJ's', as opposed to 'Dead DJ's'---if the political parties have canned music with popular songs that the masses recognize, they are happy because the music is an after thought and the public knows the 'hits' and they react accordingly....
mark

[Dan Schultz]

.... What do you guys think? Does playing a band's music at an outdoor political rally without the band's permission constitute a copyright violation? .....

What the music is being used for is a non-issue. Isn't ANY use of copyrighted material without the owner's permission a violation?

[SRanney]

Does the Ramada Inn corporation get approval for any music they play in their lobbies or their elevators?

I would bet that larger corporations contract some outside business to license the music they play in their lobbies, elevators, etc (e.g., Musak). What interests me is whether or not businesses that play satellite radio feeds should be able to use those feeds for customer entertainment. Maybe because they've already subscribed to the feed they've effectively "rented" the rights to the songs?

[The Big Ben]

Does the Ramada Inn corporation get approval for any music they play in their lobbies or their elevators?

I would bet that larger corporations contract some outside business to license the music they play in their lobbies, elevators, etc (e.g., Musak). What interests me is whether or not businesses that play satellite radio feeds should be able to use those feeds for customer entertainment. Maybe because they've already subscribed to the feed they've effectively "rented" the rights to the songs?

This is true. One of my best friends is an executive in this music industry. About 20 years ago, the firm he started with began doing all the leg work needed to provide "Muzak with original artists". It was and is very successful. The company provides the music and all the hardware needed to have music in a business. All a business has to do is pay for it. The firm he currently runs has moved into providing the service via XM Radio. I'm not sure *exactly* how they handle the licensing but it is efficient and very profitable. They have contracts with major chain restaurants and retailers.

Not sure about one business using a XM feed on their own... I'll have to ask my friend next time I see him...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Good points so far. I don't have a dog in this fight, just interested in the possible applications of this "violation" and what it might mean for normal folks.

In particular, I'm curious what the "cutoff" is. If we take it for gospel that playing Rush's music over loudspeakers at a political rally without the band's permission is a copyright violation, what then is the law for playing a Garth Brooks song with a small combo at a wedding without Mr. Brooks' express permission? Is it the size of the venue that matters? The fact that it's "political" and expresses a particular point of view?

I'm also still very interested in the possible ramifications for "DJs" and other folks who provide music at outdoor parties, raves, and other large events. Should they be required to produce "cue sheets" of the music they use and submit payment to ASCAP/BMI? How big does the event have to be before it "counts"? Was the annual band banquet at the university here last spring in violation of copyright for playing recorded music at the dance? Help!

Please note...there still doesn't seem to be an answer to why Rand Paul's use of the Rush songs in question was a violation. Was it because he didn't pay for it, or because Rush doesn't like the message of the campaign? That, to me, seems to be a huge distinction.

[Tundratubast]

During a previous life as an Association Exec. Director responsible for promoting trade shows in a large local facility. It was the association's responsibility to contract w/ ASCAP & BMI for the rights to broadcast any copyrighted music being used in a public venue. The fees were based on the venue, anticipated daily attendance counts and the duration of the event. Even though the facility also had a contract for broadcasting during its' own events, it did not carry over to outside organizations leasing the facility for other types of programs or shows. Based on our attendance counts for a three day event, payment to the groups would have been several thousand dollars. Therefore, we did not have overhead music being played during our trade shows. During one event, a local radio station had set up a booth to do live broadcasting from the show. This was a great promotional opportunity for our event, but, when they started to rebroadcast their program into the facility, it became my responsibility to have the contract w/ ASCAP & BMI. Their contracts for broadcasting do not transfer into broadcasts into public events. This was a situation for providing music into a public event where there was gate charge for the attendees. Needless to say the management and I had a discussion on the rebroadcasting into the venue I was leasing. ASCAP & BMI, do have representative around the country seeking out violators of public broadcasting of copyrighted music. Their fees are not inexpensive, they do a fine job of protecting the artists that register their music with those organizations.

So the point is, if the music has been registered with the Music Police (ASCAP & BMI), the politicians are just as responsible for the rebroadcast as anyone. Absolutely, SUE THE BAST***'s.

[Mike Finn]

I'm also still very interested in the possible ramifications for "DJs" and other folks who provide music at outdoor parties, raves, and other large events. Should they be required to produce "cue sheets" of the music they use and submit payment to ASCAP/BMI? How big does the event have to be before it "counts"? Was the annual band banquet at the university here last spring in violation of copyright for playing recorded music at the dance? Help!

It is my understanding that the venues that have DJ's, live performances, or modified stereo systems (bigger amps, more speakers, a CD player run through a PA system, etc) are responsible for arranging licensing through ASCAP and BMI (and maybe SESAC?) and paying fees based on the size of the venue and the number of "performances". So when I'm in a local dive hammering out "Sweet Home Alabama" I can do it knowing that Lynnyrd Skynnyrd's lawyer isn't coming after me for royalties. Where was your band banquet held? On campus, or at a local restaurant/hotel? How big a stereo was the music played through? Was it background/mood music, or was a significant/featured part of the evening?

edit- Note to self: click the linky before posting...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Where was your band banquet held?

At the student union ballroom, on campus.

On campus, or at a local restaurant/hotel?

See above.

How big a stereo was the music played through?

Quite large...four very large speakers, one in each corner of an approximately 2500 sq. ft. ballroom.

Was it background/mood music, or was a significant/featured part of the evening?

It was a dance, so I would have to say the music was very significant and certainly not "background."

So, what say you, wannabe lawyers...did we break the law?

[Mike Finn]

So, what say you, wannabe lawyers...did we break the law?

I don't wanna be a lawyer, but I would go out on a limb and guess that there are probably enough events like this at the ballroom that someone there has already figured out how to make sure everything is nice and legal. Maybe you could contact the student union and ask. Someone there should know something.

[Mike Finn]

Consider a CD being played, and a painting in a picture frame.

Why is the artist who created the music entitled to be compensated everytime the music is heard by a group of human beings, while the artist who created the painting is not entited to be compensated everytime the painting is viewed by a group of human beings?

DG

Has to do with ownership, I guess. And I'm thinking the OWNER of the artwork does have just as much right to rececive recompense for its viewing as the OWNER of the music. By owner, I mean copyright holder, which is not always the creator. To use your example of a picture in a frame, when I go to a musem (where a group of human beings can view a bunch of paintings) I will expect to pay an admission fee. For the price of that fee, I am given permission to view the artwork. If I want to take some art home with me, I must visit the gift shop and pay yet another fee for a reproduction of that work. (When I have friends over, I do not charge them anything to look at the pictures on my wall.)

I should also point out that the artist who created the music is not "entitled to be compensated everytime the music is heard by a group of human beings". To use your example of a CD being played, I played several CDs at my birthday party in my backyard (no admission, byob) and I did not pay any royalties to the copyright holders, nor was I required by law to do so. (When I have friends over, I do not charge them anything to listen to music on my stereo.)

I see your point, and I agree that it seems like composers enjoy more protection than visual artists, but I am not convinced that that is the case. Perhaps we are more aware of it as musicians ourselves, or maybe because it is in the news so much more? How many CD's (or mp3's or whatever) do you have compared to pictures in frames? How many billions of dollars worth of pirated CD's (or "shared' files) are floating around out there? How much music does the average person have that was not comletely legally or ethically obtained versus the amount of artwork on their walls? No accusations, just food for thought.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I'm not sure of the copyright issue here. I believe it is more of an implied endorsement by the artist that is at stake. Both political party's have their musical fans with them on stage and I'm sure that can attract huge crowds. This particular Rush song describes a very independent type of person which is what Mr. Paul is trying to portray, so not only does he get an implied endorsement from Rush, he also gets a pre written campaign introduction.
PEACE.
ASG

[ArnoldGottlieb]

...MY CITY WAS GONE
THERE WAS NO TRAIN STATION
THERE WAS NO DOWNTOWN

One of the coolest rock bass lines ever!! I don't imagine the real Pretenders would endorse any political pretenders. Although, if they did, one could easily ask who the real pretenders were.
Peace.
ASG