The price of horns is Too Damn High!

[pwhitaker]

... are doomed to repeat it.

[bisontuba]

It's "damn" as in "damned" or "condemned" (by something larger than ourselves).
Yes, he began the "states-as-provinces-rather-than-nations thing, which was ruinous...perhaps the first hope-y/change-y president... (??)
His "save the union" b.s. was really not "saving". Rather, it was "redefining" (via mass murder - just as in eastern Europe and Asia in the 20th Century).

Another murderous-statist tyrant, though, Jackson (the very first Democrat), came up with that ingenious "Trail of Tears" idea...[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Sorry for the spelling error....didn't have my specs on....BUT....it is still Lincoln's fault....and now Wilson!.....LOL...

[alfredr]

Maybe the experiment had already failed by the time the Articles of Confederation needed to be replaced? Mankind as a society's default state may be feudalistic /oligarchic? A group of more than a few people generally needs a leader and several followers, yes?

Total freedom maybe only works as long as, like Daniel Boone we can move to another place when we feel encroached upon when we see the smoke from a new settler's cabin on the horizon? As my high school Government teacher used to say, "Your rights end where my nose begins."

"Some animals are more equal than others." Animal Farm by George Orwell.

A few people are leaders/rulers, most are followers, a few others are malcontents/mavericks/whiners and complainers/entrepreneurs/the ones who leave home to seek their fortune in some foreign land/someone else's immigrants, and so on.

[alfredr]

Another quote I I wanted to throw in: Some people march to a different drummer, and some people polka!

[Rick Denney]

Maybe the experiment had already failed by the time the Articles of Confederation needed to be replaced? Mankind as a society's default state may be feudalistic /oligarchic? A group of more than a few people generally needs a leader and several followers, yes?

Total freedom maybe only works as long as, like Daniel Boone we can move to another place when we feel encroached upon when we see the smoke from a new settler's cabin on the horizon? As my high school Government teacher used to say, "Your rights end where my nose begins."

"Some animals are more equal than others." Animal Farm by George Orwell.

A few people are leaders/rulers, most are followers, a few others are malcontents/mavericks/whiners and complainers/entrepreneurs/the ones who leave home to seek their fortune in some foreign land/someone else's immigrants, and so on.

The American experiment was based on equality under the law, not on equality of outcomes. It meant that nobody was above the law (including a nobility and monarch), not that the law was there to ensure that everyone was treated fairly by life. Remember, humans are sinful and self-destructive by nature.

The individual freedom (and the importance of the individual versus the state) in the American system is not a natural state, but it is compatible with natural wants and needs. Slavery (of whatever type) and rulers is the natural state. Remember that the Hebrews wanted a human king, despite that God had set them up so that they didn't need one. Those of us who are Christians see that overcoming the natural state is the reason Christ did what he did, and the obligation we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to seek.

Rick "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Denney

[Donn]

The American experiment was based on equality under the law, not on equality of outcomes. It meant that nobody was above the law (including a nobility and monarch), not that the law was there to ensure that everyone was treated fairly by life. Remember, humans are sinful and self-destructive by nature.

We're getting quite a bit of this here in Seattle.

The highly mobile high tech industries have apparently decide to move here en masse, bringing 10s of thousands of people here per year, some of them house hunting with million dollar signing bonuses in their pockets. Competing with investment buyers, often Chinese money ... well, briefly, there's a severe shortage of housing for people with ordinary incomes or less. We're adding new units at an amazing pace, the cranes are everywhere, but there's more money to be invested if the right deals can be made, and the politician/developer downtown alliance sees the opportunity to do a lot of business if land use zones can be made more permissive.

(Coming to my point) there's a whole class of practically professional victims, that has been cultivated to cast opposition to any of these land rezone schemes as villains ... I could go on, but anyway, the tenor of their complaints tends to be that they really have just as much right to live in X neighborhood as anyone else, and it's criminally unfair they can't, so the current residents are obligated to turn their neighborhoods over to the developers for the sake of social justice. Equality of outcomes, as you put it. I have a hunch they are losing more, personally, by turning themselves over to victimhood, than they could have ever possibly gained, but whatever.

The thing is, though, we as a society do have a huge stake in making sure people have reasonable places to live. Overcrowded dwellings, long commutes, homelessness, are not just bad for the people who endure them, we all pay a cost for the societal dysfunction that comes with them. That doesn't mean equality of outcomes, but there's some level of inequality of outcomes that isn't really acceptable if you want to live in, let's say, a 1st world type city. So it can get complicated - I don't know if it's because humans are inherently sinful, but I can think of a mayor who I think is pretty rotten!

[Donn]

No one is forced to live in Seattle...are they...??

I know of places where people can live in MUCH nicer places than MANY houses I've seen pictured in Seattle...for around $600 - $800 mo...and with some actual LAND...MAYBE EVEN a pond...and with property taxes of a few HUNDRED dollars/yr.

There are several issues here.

• If you work for an outfit that moves its offices to Seattle, you aren't precisely forced to live in Seattle - you could walk away from job and hope something else comes up. Or we can define "force to" as "offer a set of bad choices, the best of which is".
• Because we deplore "urban sprawl" for good reason, Seattle as the largest city in the region is expected under our Growth Management Act to accommodate growth predicted for the region. That doesn't excuse the current fiasco, but it's part of the picture.
• In the short term we might be able to moderate the influx, but in a couple generations, climate is going to join the driving factors if it hasn't already. The SW, including California, will have insufficient water to support large cities. Etc. for the rest of the country. The way I've been hearing it, it will mostly just get wetter here in the winter and maybe some other minor unpleasantness, but far less unpleasant than elsewhere. We could use a big earthquake as a reminder, but given the alternatives that usually doesn't hold everyone back.
• The blackberries are bad enough, no one wants to move to kudzu country. Seattle really is on its own merits a truly desirable place to live.

[bisontuba]

...no one wants to move to kudzu country.

an interesting comment - particularly when offered by such a staunchly pro-big-government botanist

No...It hasn't done as much damage (to humanity) as did the big-gov't statist, Abraham Lincoln, but yes, this U.S. Dep't of Agriculture-recommended plant has done a great deal of damage (to the land).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_in_ ... ted_States

Poor Abe....some Southeners just can't come to grips about the greatest President in U.S. History....

[bisontuba]

[quote="bloke"]Several of the comments in this thread remind me a great deal of a passage that I've read a few times:



Lincoln's/Mao's methods (separated by a century, but virtually identical) of promoting big government and controlling The People (aka "saving the union") were quite effective:
Exterminate and starve those who disagree with the agenda until many of them are gone, and until those who remain cry uncle.

So, Lincoln and Mao had similar methodology? Someone's been outside in the sun too long ......

[tofu]

Poor Abe....some Southeners just can't come to grips about the greatest President in U.S. History....

....pffft

I've been hearing this a lot lately from wacko far out leftists who seem to just throw George Washington under the bus. Lincoln ended slavery and that alone seems to count for his ascension to #1.

Amongst founding fathers, who today seem to be all lumped together as equals, Washington was truly held head & shoulders above the rest. Washington had an amazing capacity to utilize the best of people like Jefferson & Hamilton and keep them in his inner circle. Those two could not be more polar opposite in their thinking and despised each other. Washington understood compromise and had the ability to change his thinking/tactics when confronted with new information (something modern politicians seem incapable of). Without Washington there is no United States and no Union for Lincoln to save. Washington could have been King but understood the long term importance of not doing so. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to be President as well as doing a second term. He firmly declined a third term creating the modern 2 term limit. The accomplishments of the man in relationship to his importance to the USA overwhelm what any other president has or ever will do.

A quote from an excellent book that will show Washington's strengths and weaknesses (and makes one appreciate Washington even more for his ability to understand & deal with his weaknesses)

Among our founding fathers, Franklin was the wisest, Hamilton the most brilliant, Jefferson the most intellectual, Adams the greatest scholar and Madison the most sophisticated politician. Yet they all acknowledged Washington as their superior (although it’s not certain they believed this at all times). Explaining his greatness is a minor historical industry because, unlike his great contemporaries, George Washington rarely explained himself.

[bisontuba]

Yes, I would put George #2...

[Rick Denney]

...He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to be President as well as doing a second term. He firmly declined a third term creating the modern 2 term limit.

Not disagreeing about Washington, but this statement...not so much. The two-term limit was enacted by the 22nd Amendment, in 1951. FDR was elected to four terms, and demonstrated that making people feel good was a better election strategy than telling them the truth or solving the problem at hand. Considering how difficult it is to ratify an amendment to the constitution, the concern for long-term presidencies such as FDR's was more acutely understood in 1951 compared to today.

Rick "careful about historical fact" Denney

[tofu]

...He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to be President as well as doing a second term. He firmly declined a third term creating the modern 2 term limit.

Not disagreeing about Washington, but this statement...not so much. The two-term limit was enacted by the 22nd Amendment, in 1951. FDR was elected to four terms, and demonstrated that making people feel good was a better election strategy than telling them the truth or solving the problem at hand. Considering how difficult it is to ratify an amendment to the constitution, the concern for long-term presidencies such as FDR's was more acutely understood in 1951 compared to today.

Rick "careful about historical fact" Denney

Yes getting historical fact (especially these days) is very important. My intent was the precedent he set by not running for a third term. He felt Presidents shouldn't serve "for life" and have the office devolve into a sort of elected kingship. His Farewell Address to the nation was used to announce his intention to decline a run for a third term. The original draft had been prepared after serving only a single term. He set it aside and ran for a second term after the rancor between his Secretary of the Treasury Hamilton and his Secretary of State Jefferson convinced him that the growing divisions between the Federalist and Republican parties along with the then current state of foreign affairs would tear the country apart without his leadership. I did not mean to infer that he created the actual 22nd amendment.

[bisontuba]

Of course, FDR's view of government - being the opposite of George Washington's - encouraged him to be "President For Life" - which he was.

The United States has never really recovered from his presidency. It finally recovered, economically, in the 1980's, but the American people's overall view of the role of the American government was destroyed during FDR's tenure.

Recovered in the 1980's? Huh?? Trickle down economics and massive debt didn't work. It was Bubba in the 90's that got the economy straightened out...

[alfredr]

Is that Spam on your tray there, Wade? And sweet potato fries?

[Rick Denney]

Of course, FDR's view of government - being the opposite of George Washington's - encouraged him to be "President For Life" - which he was.

The United States has never really recovered from his presidency. It finally recovered, economically, in the 1980's, but the American people's overall view of the role of the American government was destroyed during FDR's tenure.

Recovered in the 1980's? Huh?? Trickle down economics and massive debt didn't work. It was Bubba in the 90's that got the economy straightened out...

I seem to recall that the control on federal spending, which is one part of what created the surplus, was the result of Gramm-Rudman and Newt Gingrich. The other part was drastic cuts in military spending made possible by the end of the Cold War.

But if you look at GDP growth (as opposed to government debt), the growth in the 80's was long and sustained, whereas the growth in the 90's turned out, in part, to be a bubble. Volker's strict monetary policy in the 80's deserves a lot of credit, and it is true that he was a Carter appointee. But Carter's successor supported him, consistent with his Friedman-driven viewpoint.

Rick "we remember different things, apparently" Denney

[Donn]

It's the vegetable course.

[FarahShazam]

I thought about splitting this topic into politics because I'm weary of the direction this is turning. I don't want to police a bunch of adults, however, if this gets heated, could you start a spin off thread? Please? I've already asked someone just to keep an eye on this.

#NotYourMom
ps. I am ITCHING to replace Bloke's avatar with that picture of Beano.