C Trombone

[PMeuph]

I like the way nobody can find fault with the performances made on Bb instruments in this thread.

Tuba forum ???

Honestly, I can't find any that are in fact caused by the fact that the horn is in Bb and would be instantly solved if the horn is in C.

Blowing through 13 feet of tubing with very few bends or blowing through 12 feet of tubing with very few bends seems like it would be very similar to me...

BBb = 18 feet
CC = 16 feet
Eb = 13 1/2 feet
f = 12 feet

sorta

Yup, 7th position on either Bb or c trombone would be in the 12-13 foot range.

[sungfw]

I have never played a slide trombone in C and would not see really any practical use for one - since as stated above most advanced trombonists transpose quite easily.

Having grown up attending a church rooted in the American Holiness Movement, I had the opportunity to sit under the pastoral care of a number of older (close to retirement age) ministers who were reasonably adept on C trombone, and to rub elbows with several dozen others. As best as I can recall, all of those men were what we would now call "bi-vocational," farming or working blue collar jobs by day, and pastoring congregations evenings and weekends. (This was a denomination in which, up until the early to mid-70s, when it came time to find a new pastor, the names of all the male members were written on slips of paper and put into an offering plate, from which the oldest male member of the congregation drew a slip, and whoever's name was on the slip became the new pastor.)

Few of those men had formal music training beyond the rudiments of "tongue and blow": mostly, they played by ear and/or from memory. Their reason for taking up the trombone (or C trumpet, as the case may be) was purely practical and born of necessity: to be able to lead congregational music in their churches—many of which lacked a piano and/or a competent pianist; and most of them learned to play from their mentors or other pastors in the district. So the notion of "advanced trombonists" who would have been able to "transpose easily" reflects a world quite at odds with the sociological reality of the the communities in which those men moved. While this may not have been the case for every denomination associated with the Holiness Movement, it was the case for the denomination in which I grew up and the related denominations of which I was familiar at the time.

To the question of why for C trombone as opposed to Bb trombone, my guess is that, at least initially (Post-bellum 19th-early 20th century), given the large preponderance of hymns in C, G, F in hymnals of that era, the preference for C trombones reflects the facility with which notes in those overtone series can be accessed on a C trombone, as opposed to a Bb trombone, e.g., accessing C-Bnat is a whole lot easier and quicker in 1-2 on a C horn than 6-7 on a Bb.

[Bob Kolada]

C trombone...

Were I to build one with a thumb valve...the 7th position would (of course) be F# (instead of E)...and the playing slide length would be shorter (not as far to 7th position)...
...so I would probably still pitch the F-attachment in F...a so-called "quint" valve, which would offer a nearly completely chromatic instrument.
i.e. there would be a playable low Db without yanking on any tuning slides.

I'm not so sure about that. A proportional C trombone will have a shorter slide than a Bb trombone and most Bb/F trombones have low Db near the end of the slide (and usually an unrealistic C). With a quint valve C/F trombone you'd need to tune the F valve sharp as you will only have one place to play it.

[iiipopes]

C trombones were produced decades ago and labeled 'preacher' models. They fell out of favor along with C melody saxophones.

Joke for the day: do you know how many C-melody saxophone players you can fit in a phone booth? All of them!

[Donn]

Doing the arithmetic for Bb, since that's of more interest to me and the principle ought to be the same ... the way it looks to me,
Bb = 9', F = 12', E = 12.7', Eb = 13.5, C = 16, B = 17
- The slide (E - Bb) is 3.7', the typical F valve is 3' (F - Bb), combined (E + valve) is 15.7 (short of C)
- with an Eb valve, the combined length (E + (Eb - Bb)) is 17.2, so B is easy.

I keep a bass trombone around for when I'm in a sadistic mood, and tune the valve to E, which adds up to 16.4; B comes close to falling off the end, but it's there if one is desperate enough. Eb would obviously be better. For the mythical C bass trombone, F would be the same. But it would be like playing a straight slide trombone most of the time, so you'd sure need the full 7 positions, you just wouldn't need anything beyond.

[iiipopes]

Yamaha makes a student trombone where the trigger is actually an ascending valve to take tubing out of the circuit to raise the open pitch from BBb to C, the YSL-350C. Flip the rotor and you have a C trombone with a trigger down to Bb.

ysl-350c.jpg

[MaryAnn]

I was going to post the same article about Doug Yeo's preacher model. It explains that those reading treble clef could do so without transposing.

If I were still playing, I'd like a C trombone because I'd be able to reach 7th without having to swivel to my right and extend my arm all the way (and, BTW, it was Doug Yeo himself who told me that was the way for a small person to play trombone.)

[iiipopes]

Here's an article on the Conn 60H "C" with Bb rotary attachment: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn60H1914image.html
... and here's one for sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trombone-C-G-C ... 2865674228

This proves the adage, "Nothing new except the history you don't know."

[MaryAnn]

And if you read by pitch, the only considerations for the key of the instrument is ergonomics and tone. Tone, you should be able to produce what you want.