Disturbing social trends

[MartyNeilan]

• Indigent Children (ICs) have to be out of the house daily by the time you leave for work.
  ICs don't get a key.
  ICs can't return to the house 'til you do.
  ICs can't have friends over.
  ICs must be in the house for the night by the time you go to bed.
  ICs must do their own laundry.
  ICs must share AT LEAST equally in the housework.
  ICs must provide their own transportation.
  ICs don't drink, smoke, or use drugs (if there's any doubt, surprise them with drug tests from time to time).
  ICs aren't allowed to purchase luxury items, even with their own money. They should save it to get their own place.

Wow, Joe, what a grilling!!!

[Joe Baker]

• Indigent Children (ICs) have to be out of the house daily by the time you leave for work.
  ICs don't get a key.
  ICs can't return to the house 'til you do.
  ICs can't have friends over.
  ICs must be in the house for the night by the time you go to bed.
  ICs must do their own laundry.
  ICs must share AT LEAST equally in the housework.
  ICs must provide their own transportation.
  ICs don't drink, smoke, or use drugs (if there's any doubt, surprise them with drug tests from time to time).
  ICs aren't allowed to purchase luxury items, even with their own money. They should save it to get their own place.

Wow, Joe, what a grilling!!!

Durn tootin'. I work with a couple of people who have had their nests repopulated by irresponsible ICs. I've seen what has worked, and what hasn't worked. The key is to make sure that there is no way for the IC to think of the parents' house as HIS house. He may sleep there, but he doesn't "live" there. He can't sleep in, so he might as well get a job so he can have his own place. At least then he can stay up late and buy that cool stereo.

I don't really think I'll have this problem with any of my kids, because we've spent time since they were young talking about the process by which people get greater and greater freedom, and with it greater and greater responsibility. However, I WILL say that if ANY of my kids gives me cause to worry that they won't grow up and take responsibility for their lives, it is my son -- not my daughters (see my earlier comments about the effects of pop culture).
_____________________________
Joe Baker, who knows how to turn up the heat.

[Rick Denney]

For the parents who don't want to put their kids on the street with no shelter, but DO want to motivate them to grow up, I suggest this:...

I was just describing what would happen when this didn't work, heh, heh.

I would always make an exception for someone who was, in good faith, pursuing a credible plan for independence. I wouldn't even impose your rules on them, until it became apparent that the good faith was misplaced. For example, I took two extra years to get through college, but it was because of a change in career path that my parents supported. Once I graduated, it was expected, and I fully assumed, that I would be living on my own. That's why I made sure I was gainfully employed before graduation.

The not providing a key is the enforcement trick in your list.

Of course, your list and my suggestion sound brutal and harsh only because they are trying to make up for 20 years of lost ground.

Rick "who thinks good ethics must be demonstrated and taught early, and then demonstrated and reinforced consistently, to avoid brutal damage control" Denney

[Rick Denney]

And I have to say, that if the only thing women needed men for was a paycheck, and that men were complacent with that, then I still advance that this is Darwinism in action!

This is a great point. Part of the reason men are trivialized by radical feminists is because they abdicated their role as real men. Real men are consistently and dependably responsible, selfless, faithful, ethical, and accountable to God for their spiritual leadership of the family. And, of course, that's leadership by example, because it's the only kind of leadership that works. Too many men believed that the Bible's call for wifely submission meant a call for blind obedience (or obeisance). It doesn't, of course.

But as with all pendulum swinging, it has gone too far. Mary Ann's story of being victimized by a boss could easily have been done by a woman in authority, too. The woman may not have made the same demands, but her different demands and her tactics might be just as immoral. As more women rise to powerful positions, this will increase. By my observation, women are more aggressive than men in the workplace, and more willing to use political tactics rather than sheer achievement to reach their goals. That is not a statement about women, but about many women who sought positions of power long enough ago and successfully enough that they have now achieved them. I work close to government where women are particularly advantaged (compared to what used to be the case); my example base is not small. Of course, exceptions abound. But being an asshole in power knows no gender.

I will extend my generalization one more step onto this thin branch I'm swaying on: Women are much more likely to use coercion to force a standard of behavior on people than are men. The most vocal and demanding of neighborhood-group activitists are women; etc. Men have other faults.

I also agree with Chuck's assessments, though I think it grows out of the feminism of the 70's and has nothing to do with Reagan (except perhaps for some contribution from the rise of the no-fault divorce that Reagan championed in California as governor). In fact, the increase in working women, from perhaps 15% in 1960 to perhaps 85% today, is an example of a robust economy. It takes quite a lot for an economy to have so much excess demand that it can absorb so large an increase in supply and still maintain a substantial growth in price (i.e., income).

Rick "who sees a lot of dejected boys these days" Denney

[Joe Baker]

For the parents who don't want to put their kids on the street with no shelter, but DO want to motivate them to grow up, I suggest this:...

I was just describing what would happen when this didn't work, heh, heh.

I would always make an exception for someone who was, in good faith, pursuing a credible plan for independence. I wouldn't even impose your rules on them, until it became apparent that the good faith was misplaced.

Absolutely.

In fact, I'll likely encourage my kids to do what I did after college when they complete their education: move in with me for up to a year, while they find work and save up some money -- and pay me rent, do their own laundry, help with the housework, etc. But that assumes they are ACTIVELY pursuing a path to independence.

A co-worker who successfully got her indolent (the word I really meant, rather than 'indigent' ) son to move out demanded he turn over $300 per month in rent -- then quietly put all the money into a savings account. When it hit $3000, she surprised him with an offer to give it back to him -- but he had to move out to get it, and then got half when he moved out and the other half six months later. He moved out two years ago, and hasn't asked to move back.

But all this hinges on parents who are willing to be tough with kids when it's necessary. Unfortunately, most parents are so guilty over their neglect of their children that they are unwilling to be tough.
______________________________
Joe Baker, whose younger kids have seen his willingness to use "tough love" techniques with his oldest daughter.

[MaryAnn]

One thing I can comment on.

I believe it reflects current policy, inasmuch that the Male WASP (or just any white male) is not sought after by employers.

Just a cross-comment:
In my small department there are eleven people, including the supervisor. All but one of them are younger than I am.

There is one white female (me,) one Vietnamese male, two Hispanic males (this is the SW and that is to be "expected,") and the other seven, including the supervisor, are white males. All of the managers and vice presidents of the company, save one, are white males. There are more managers and vice presidents in the company than there are people in my department. The CEO is a white male.

The vast majority of women employed here are in the call center and administrative assistants, which have the lowest pay of any positions. I don't know what the percentage is of white, hispanic, and other races, but I'd say more than half are Hispanic with white being second.

MA, not intending this as any rebuttal of your post, just more info.

PS: I don't think the economy has made it possible for women to work; I think the economy has made it necessary.

[Chuck(G)]

I don't believe I'm a misogynist; my wife and I have been together for 24 years and I don't know where I'd have wound up without her. Life has been good. I hope she feels the same way about me.

I'm most definitely racist. I have a preference for members of the human race. Let the lagomorphs make their own opportunities--and quit eating my flowers.

But the census number are cold hard data. Something is definitely wrong.

What might we suspect is going on? I've got a few ideas.

It's no secret that boys and girls mature at different rates, both physiologically and psychologically. Why do we insist then, on educating them together in a "one size fits all" school system? Why not segregate the sexes and deal with the developmental issues appropriately instead of expecting boys to be just like girls and vice versa?

Children, like dogs, need direction and really do try to live up to expectations. A dog who has training and knows where it fits into the scheme of things is generally well behaved and happy.

How are we telling our boys and girls where they fit into the scheme of things? Or are they just supposed to be consumers or excess population? I suspect that the males that the article talks about aren't happy nor do they know where they fit in.

Without any sort of grounding in values, how is a young man supposed to feel of value to society?

We've all but abolished the traiditonal role of the male as breadwinner and head of family, but what have we offered as a replacement for it?

Soma, anyone?

[ken k]

I would say that this case of this loser at home with the rents is nothing new. There have always been freeloaders and losers. I think like most other things we see more of it due to the exposure of it by the media etc. Look at other social trends like homosexuality. It has always been around. We see alot more of it nowadays because the media isn't afraid to portray it. Is there more of it now than there was 50 years ago? I doubt it.

First of all there are more people period. Is the percentage of losers higher now than it was 50 years ago? I doubt it. The only differnece is 50 years ago they were drafted into the military and they got a quick dose of reality and matured quickly.

ken k

[TubaRay]

You've now broken the rules and stepped over into politics.

Gasp!!! What will happen to us now?!

[Chuck(G)]

First of all there are more people period. Is the percentage of losers higher now than it was 50 years ago? I doubt it. The only differnece is 50 years ago they were drafted into the military and they got a quick dose of reality and matured quickly.

Forget 50 years, Ken. In the last 20 years, the number has doubled.

[Rick Denney]

The vast majority of women employed here are in the call center and administrative assistants, which have the lowest pay of any positions....

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

Now, of the students I see at the annual meetings of professional and research organizations, I see one woman for perhaps every five men. In 25 years, will female engineers with 25 years of experience complain that only 20% of the people at their level are women?

I wonder if those trends are related? Don't you think it will take women as long to progress up the ladder as men?

Where are you expecting these women to come from, if they don't choose this line of work in college like the men did?

In many cases, women self-select into roles they perceive as being more favorable or satisfying, and engineering doesn't seem to be one of those fields.

I really don't think Texas A&M told entering women that engineering was a man's profession. Those same women, as girls, were generally better at math and science than the men when they were in high school, and Texas A&M would have been most pleased to have them in their engineering program. But they didn't want to be there. Why is that? The lack of women in engineering may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My observation of women in my field with my level of experience holds. I can't explain it, but I can't explain it away, either. Some are quite competent, some are just adequate, and some are real assholes. Just like men. But the assholes are generally more ruthless than any man, because the men who are that ruthless are absolutely shunned and isolated by other men who don't want to be around them. Men of my age who I know are scared to do that with the aggressive women.

Eventually, things will even out. But careers last 30-40 years, and it takes a while for a change to fully assimilate. Those who are CEO's now were training back in the 60's or early 70's when women just beginning to undertake that career path. 50 years from, now, things will be much more even. Being a CEO usually requires some decades of experience, unless one is creating a new company from scratch in a line of work where decades of experience is not essential to success.

Rick "who has lost a number of projects to women-owned businesses who received special consideration, and who has endured incompetent work in higher than usual percentages from minority-owned and women-owned sub-contractors who were selected solely to meet government mandates" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

Men's brains are differently from women's brains. Not misogyny, but a statement of fact:

http://www.newhorizons.org/neuro/diamon ... female.htm

No one's sure exactly what this means, but I have a theory...

Men (and boys) seem to like toys more than women in my experience. One of the lists I belong to is for Classic Computer hobbyists. Yes, there are strange people out there who give the living room over to a VAX or other large system, complete with tape drives, HVAC and electric bill. These same folks rent warehouse space to store their goodies and rent large trucks and drive a thousand miles to save something from the scrap metal dealer.

I'm not one of those people; the list is a convenient place to dispose of the detritus that I've accumulated during my years in the computer biz. Oddly, some of it turns out to be desirable. It's an odd feeling that stuff you purchased new is now considered to be "vintage".

There is not a single woman on the list. My guess is that old computer hardware isn't that appealing. To the men on the list, it's like they've got the best toys ever

[MartyNeilan]

One of the lists I belong to is for Classic Computer hobbyists. Yes, there are strange people out there who give the living room over to a VAX or other large system, complete with tape drives, HVAC and electric bill. ... My guess is that old computer hardware isn't that appealing. To the men on the list, it's like they've got the best toys ever

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side. All it takes is one data check on reel 8 of 9 in the output of a sort and you can easily lose the better part of a shift. While some of that stuff may have looked cool, I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

[windshieldbug]

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side

Obviously few, if any, else why would they reassemble such an array in their living room? Masochists? Where do you put the tape library? The bathroom?

[Chuck(G)]

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side

Obviously few, if any, else why would they reassemble such an array in their living room? Masochists? Where do you put the tape library? The bathroom?

The reverse is true, for the hard-bitten ones. More than a few were project engineers or field engineers. Some are admittedly newbies and some are downright scary:

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html

An Apple I (just a printed circuit board, really) recreation sold for over $1700 on eBay. That's a recreation, not an original.

It'd be interesting to see if proportion of tuba collectors is the same among males and female tuba players. My guess is that most of them are male. "Tuba collector" in this case might be loosely defined as one who owns 5 or more tubas.

[Rick Denney]

...and some are downright scary:

What it tells me is that some people are tenaciously unwilling to give up knowledge that they attained through great effort.

Rick "retoring a motorhome of the vintage of cars he worked on in high school" Denney

[MaryAnn]

The vast majority of women employed here are in the call center and administrative assistants, which have the lowest pay of any positions....

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

< big snip >

Rick <snip>

You seem to be responding to some things I don't think I said. While my department is engineers, the managers and VPs and the CEO are not engineers; they are primarily accountants and lawyers. One of the big movements in this company in the last few years has been the denigration of engineers in general as being incapable of communicating with management in any intelligible way. The engineers' viewpoint that the deficit is in the intelligence level of the managers has not won extra points. I was responding to someone's post that it seemed that everyone except white males seemed to be getting all the jobs; and that in the company I work in, it sure doesn't look that way.

As for women not going into engineering....I agree completely. I'm in the odd position of being on the fence, not having much in common with most women (I can't fathom why they want to wear uncomfortable clothing and primp for an hour in front of the mirror) and not fitting in with the men either, because they make assumptions based on the fact that I'm female. I'm automatically excluded from, for example, business discussions and decisions that occur in the rest room. Men don't realize the fact that they gang together as men and exclude women de facto. Some women get really, really mad about this, react to it, and get the reputation of being "aggressive." Just as people of color react to being stopped by the police every time they happen to wander into a wrong scenario.

Rick, your frustration at losing contracts to minorities based on government mandates matches up quite well to the frustration of those same minorities at not getting contracts in the past due to the good ole boys' club that still runs the country and most of the world. Yes, I think things will even up in time, but it's going to be quite a long while, with a lot of attitudes needing to change. And I doubt that fairness will ever rule; just the pendulum will swing back and forth.

One reason I like the concept of re-incarnation is that I think everybody should have to go through life in all types of shoes so that the entire education is received, and not just a tendril of it.

MA

[TubaRay]

I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

Now that's fragile!!!

[Chuck(G)]

I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

Now that's fragile!!!

OT:

Give me a 2400' reel of 9 track tape any day over a DC-anything cartridge when it comes to robustness. We routinely handle 20 and 30 year old 9 track tapes without incident. OTOH, I've yet to see a DC-100 of similar age that can be read at all.

Same goes for floppies--give me 8" anytime over the smaller formats.

[Shockwave]

The reason more adult males stay home and mooch is that opportunities for less ambitious males to live comfortably have dried up. In the past one could easily become a factory worker, or after a not too involved apprenticeship a tradesman and do that simple job until retirement. Now most trades have become so complicated that they require more intelligence and drive (and money) just to get through the school. Women aren't as attracted to technical jobs and so aren't as strongly affected.

Any job that doesn't require schooling is probably either a sales job where one needs to be strongly motivated or is dominated by immigrants who had the ambition to leave their own countries to work here for what we consider peanuts. Either way a single person doesn't earn enough for a decent living because prices are geared toward two income families with good credit ratings that borrow large amounts of money in addition to spending what they earn. Even if the unambitious person does land a decent job, they will be competing whether they like it or not with the "typical american worker" who typically works a lot more than 40 hours in a week and usually more days than 5.

Ambition is heavily rewarded in our society, so of course we see more successful women and minorities as their opportunities improve, but the person who just wants to get by is gradually being degraded to bum status even though they arent bums. Those that can live comfortably do so by staying with their parents who probably are no more ambitious themselves but who grew up in a time when ambition and workaholism weren't so necessary.

-Eric