Anyone else sick of hearing about "high gas prices?&quo

Be kind. No government, state, or local politics allowed. Admin has final decision for any/all removed posts.
Forum rules
Be kind. No government, state, or local politics allowed. Admin has final decision for any/all removed posts.
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

tubeast wrote:WOW. People drive 30000 MILES a year. Others accept to be on the road for hours to get to their band practice (think of the practise potential in that). No, nothing to whine about.
When Europeans come to America or Canada for a visit, they should drive or take the train from place to place, rather than fly. That way, you can get a notion of geographic scale that is just unknown in Europe.

Except for the eastern third of the U.S., most of the development of cities occurred after the widespread availability of the automobile. And even in the eastern third, I can only change "most" to "much".

Studies have shown that when income reaches the point where common people can buy a car, they will do so even if the traffic is unworkable. Any Asian boom city demonstrates the point. It's later in the development cycle when people start to want to care for their history and quality of life when they decide to live in places where they can avoid using a car.

In Europe, cities did much of their developing after trains but before cars, so cities there are based more effectively on trains and mass transit. It also means that people there are trained through the generations to enjoy close quarters with their neighbors.

Many Americans are not so trained, and prefer space and a more indpendent lifestyle. I live in what was once a town that sported two mills, a post office, and a school. It was a convenient four miles to the nearest big town of Waterford, Virginia, which sported a crossroads, two mills, two schools (one run by Quakers), and row houses in addition to the detached houses (think logs and stones and you'll have the right picture in your head). Waterford is seven miles from Leesburg, the county seat. Seven miles was the standard spacing for towns with services when common folk had only their feet, because that was a reasonable walking distance in a day. In San Antonio, the five missions that were built in the first half of the 18th century were spread over about six miles--just a little over a mile apart--but serviceable by the same fort which was within walking distance of all of them.

Where horses were owned by commoners, towns were built farther apart. Where cars are everyday items, towns are farther apart still. The nearest towns around the original Houston were typically 15 miles apart in the 19th Century and 25 miles apart in the 20th. There were no towns to speak of before that.

Since Ancient Rome, cities have developed to a maximum comfortable commuting time of 45 minutes. As the commute time exceeds that, employment centers move out to where the people can live. I have a 40-minute commute from a rural area beyond the suburbs to a suburban area office.

So, it should come as no surprise that for many major U.S. cities, development found the balance between independent living, real estate affordability, and commuting speed.

When I was a member of the RVW Society, I recall the entire club meeting for lunch. That could only happen in England. The club secretary asked me why we didn't do that, and I told him that it was a two or three-day drive from my central location (Dallas, at the time) to many coastal cities in the U.S. That's a LONG lunch meeting! He was astounded, having grown up where you can take the sleeper train from any European city to any other European city in one night.

Rick "sympathetic to the Navajo Nation, whose members think it is crowded if they can see their neighbors--in a place with nearly no trees" Denney
User avatar
LoyalTubist
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Arcadia, CA
Contact:

Post by LoyalTubist »

Chuck(G) wrote:You want cheap gas? Go live in Caracas--$.03 per liter--or less than $0.12 per gallon. :?
Someone needs to make another list of countries where the gasoline is cheap. I usually walk across the border from San Ysidro to Tijuana, so I have no idea how much it costs there but my friends tell me that it is less than half the price than San Diego (and you lose most of it waiting at the border to get back in!) Mexico has a government gasoline monopoly.

Before my ex-wife and I split, her parents (who still live in her native Indonesia) always gave me a report on the price of gasoline there. Last January it was up to about 80 cents a gallon. I imagine it's a lot more now. Indonesia also has a government monopoly.

I mentioned Vietnam earlier in this post, where there is competition allowed and there are different brands of gasoline. And gasoline there is about three times higher than Indonesia (I met an Indonesian when I was there who made that statement.) Now this isn't to say that government monopolies are good. This is a picture of a typical Indonesian gas station. (I couldn't lift this picture from the page to show it.) When I lived in Indonesia, gas stations always had a scary reputation.

Image

As you see by the picture I posted here, a typical Vietnamese gas station has a much more pleasant appearance and their workers are better able to provide for their families.

:D
________________________________________________________
You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
User avatar
LoyalTubist
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Arcadia, CA
Contact:

Post by LoyalTubist »

No, Rick. While I love trains (and I rode trains all the time when I was little, because my dad worked for Santa Fe and I got to ride for free), I think the best way to see this country is by car. If you start here, in Riverside, California, and drive to Las Vegas, Nevada, then, making a stop at the Grand Canyon in Arizona, head down to El Paso, Texas, you get a really great feel for the immensity of this country. And it will amaze you to see the number of cars on I-15 to Vegas. Then, on I-25 from Albuquerque, New Mexico, to El Paso, you won't see anyone, until you get to Las Cruces, New Mexico. When you get to the border, at Anthony, New Mexico (or Anthony, Texas), you will almost think you're back in California.
________________________________________________________
You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
ArnoldGottlieb
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

bloke wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:You want cheap gas? Go live in Caracas--$.03 per liter--or less than $0.12 per gallon. :?
Cool...All I would have to do to get cheep gas would be to live in a dump under a Stalinist tyrant.

:D
Blokebaby,
You know through my pm's to you that I respect you and your views. However you certainly make it hard for us liberals to hold ourselves back from the "insult buffet" you just opened for us. I mean, we know you don't live in a dump....... :lol:
Peace.
ASG
ArnoldGottlieb
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

Rick Denney wrote: In Europe, cities did much of their developing after trains but before cars, so cities there are based more effectively on trains and mass transit. It also means that people there are trained through the generations to enjoy close quarters with their neighbors.
While this may be one of the norms, it's certainly not the rule. I've lived in 2 suburbs of munich that were as nice as Connecticut where I could walk 5-10mins, get on the train and be at work in less than 20 mins. I have friends in Hannover, Hamburg, and Dusseldorf with the same kind of travel to the suburbs time that I had. If, by enjoying close quarters with their neighbors people are forced to be more polite, maybe there's a lesson for us to learn.
Peace.
ASG
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5679
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

So why hasn't anyone trotted out the 55 mph national speed limit again? It saved some fuel the last time...
ArnoldGottlieb
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

bloke wrote:
ArnoldGottlieb wrote:I mean, we know you don't live in a dump....... :lol:
ImageImage
Yeah Man,
I love it too, just saw David Blaine tonite. As for Hugo, my opinions are off board as you know, but I don't think for minute that he's the rise in our gas prices.
Peace.
ASG
tubeast
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:59 pm
Location: Buers, Austria

Post by tubeast »

Why should the emphasis right now be on "saving gas" when the amount (so far) that has been found in the ground is nearly unlimited (500 years or greater supply),
500 years based on exactly WHAT level of consumption per day ? Oil is needed for traffic, production of electricity, warmth, it is a main ingredient to many chemical products, including plastic materials, clothing, paint....

To all of these products BILLIONS of people have limited access, but ALL industrialized folks do. Chances are 98% of the world´s population will have access to the kind of technology we presently use within the coming century. (My estimation).
eliminating MANY over-the-road trucking jobs
Yes, but creating even MORE jobs on all levels of education to build and maintain those tracks, to drive and service trains, to do the material logistics, ... Let´s just hope there´ll be enough steel available.
Hans
Melton 46 S
1903 or earlier GLIER Helicon, customized Hermuth MP
2009 WILLSON 6400 RZ5, customized GEWA 52 + Wessex "Chief"
MW HoJo 2011 FA, Wessex "Chief"
User avatar
tubiker
bugler
bugler
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:01 pm
Location: lat=52.57 lon=1.12

Post by tubiker »

1) As far as Europe, one of the many things I realized living there, was that there is no need for a car when public transportation works so well. I can think of a lot of friends who are not affected by the high cost of gas in Europe, so the figures are misleading to say the least.
Sorry but that's got to be a joke - OK if you live in the big urban centre's, but if you live out in the sticks you gotta have a car to get to the train..............

:(

Andrew Murray
ArnoldGottlieb
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

tubiker wrote:
1) As far as Europe, one of the many things I realized living there, was that there is no need for a car when public transportation works so well. I can think of a lot of friends who are not affected by the high cost of gas in Europe, so the figures are misleading to say the least.
Sorry but that's got to be a joke - OK if you live in the big urban centre's, but if you live out in the sticks you gotta have a car to get to the train..............

:(

Andrew Murray
Sorry. No Joke. I've explained later in this thread that my experience is limited to germany, and the fact that I could live in a suburb and train it to work. As far as living in the sticks, and living in the UK you're probably right. Are there any gigs in the sticks where you live?
Peace.
ASG
User avatar
corbasse
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Bruges, Belgium

Post by corbasse »

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:
tubiker wrote:
1) As far as Europe, one of the many things I realized living there, was that there is no need for a car when public transportation works so well. I can think of a lot of friends who are not affected by the high cost of gas in Europe, so the figures are misleading to say the least.
Sorry but that's got to be a joke - OK if you live in the big urban centre's, but if you live out in the sticks you gotta have a car to get to the train..............

:(

Andrew Murray
Sorry. No Joke. I've explained later in this thread that my experience is limited to germany, and the fact that I could live in a suburb and train it to work. As far as living in the sticks, and living in the UK you're probably right. Are there any gigs in the sticks where you live?
Peace.
ASG
It seems indeed your experience is limited to certain parts of Germany. It very much depends on local circumstances. There are large parts of Europe where a car is the only practical means of transportation.
I bet there are plenty of large U.S. cities where you can get around well without a car?

Most of my Dutch colleagues don't even own a car. It's expensive to own one, let alone drive it, and in most cities where the work is, there's no place to park + you need a $$$$ permit. You can get almost anywhere anytime with the combination bike/public transport, At least to the places that are large enough to have a concert venue.
Only 100 miles to the south, here in Belgium, I don't have any colleague who doesn't own at least 1 car. The infrastructure is simply such that you need one to be able to get back from your gigs. Not that there is a lack of public transport. We have the densest railroad network in the world! It's the rest of the picture that doesn't fit.

BTW, where do you think we get the power needed to drive the trains from? Most of it is fossil fuel........
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5679
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

bloke wrote:Why should the emphasis right now be on "saving gas" when the amount (so far) that has been found in the ground is nearly unlimited (500 years or greater supply), plus now the more economically found ways to refine shale into oil and to refine (previously rejected) "sludgy" oil?
Because that capacity isn't on line and, should it ever be, isn't proven yet. As far as being "cheap" from a historical sense, well, oil is near is all-time dollar-adjusted peak, so it's not "cheap" from an infrastructure standpoint:

Image

Now, if we're in a "peak price" situation, it's silly to throw more money down the rathole than we need to--doing that just adds to inflationary pressures and adds to the trade deficit.

Lots of good stuff here:

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

LoyalTubist wrote:I usually walk across the border from San Ysidro to Tijuana, so I have no idea how much it costs there but my friends tell me that it is less than half the price than San Diego
But the Pemex fuel is poor quality and will not meet anything like the emissions requirements of fuels sold in the U.S. That's why it is so hard for U.S. border cities adjacent to larger Mexican cities to meet EPA clean air requirements. El Paso is worse than San Diego in that regard, becaus El Paso and Juarez are really one city, while San Diego and Tijuana centers are still separated by a couple dozen miles.

And in any place where the price is set artificially low by central planning, there will be no limit on its consumption except by other central planning. That may work if the only objective is low gas prices (and if the country--like Venezuela--produces its own fuel), but it won't be acceptable in countries where traveling is not controlled by government.

When demand exceeds supply, high prices will limit consumption so that the supply and demand come into balance. The extra money goes to the oil companies, who will spend that money creating more capacity (or giving it to their stockholders, only a few of which are really rich). When the prices are controlled, consumption will not be limited and you'll end up with gas lines, like we had in the 70's.

This is also true if gasoline prices are artificially raised (through excessive taxes, for example--especially taxes that are added solely to raise prices as a market manipulation in places where it is intolerable to centrally plan consumption). Artificially high prices result in less consumption, which puts supply out of whack with demand. Since the oil companies don't profit from the high prices, and since demand is restrained, they will not develop any additional capacity. Then, when the growing population forces an increase in demand, supply will be caught short. We've seen a few aspects of this in the U.S., even with relatively low prices compared to Europe. Another result is that fuel won't be used to improve production, and the economy's growth will be limited. Europe has seen this.

The real problem is the number of people on the planet. Now, there's a problem whose alternative solutions really frighten me.

Rick "not tired of the subject, but tired of politician blather about the subject" Denney
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

ArnoldGottlieb wrote: While this may be one of the norms, it's certainly not the rule. I've lived in 2 suburbs of munich that were as nice as Connecticut where I could walk 5-10mins, get on the train and be at work in less than 20 mins. I have friends in Hannover, Hamburg, and Dusseldorf with the same kind of travel to the suburbs time that I had. If, by enjoying close quarters with their neighbors people are forced to be more polite, maybe there's a lesson for us to learn.
Peace.
ASG
You prove my point. The people in those cities are trained thorugh the generations to tolerate close quarters. That includes close quarters on transit services, and living by the clock that transit imposes. I rode transit for a year in San Antonio because of lack of provided parking (and the desire not to pay for commercial parking). My bosses kept complaining to me and holding me responsible for my unwillingness to work late or to attend council or neighborhood meetings without considerable advance notice. But my schedule was ruled by transit. Eventually, they found parking for me.

As to politeness, the least polite people I have ever known are city people who live in close quarters. I'm not saying their brusque manner isn't appropriate to their living conditions, but it's not polite by any definition I've ever known. The only exception to that was Tokyo where people were unfailingly polite, but that may have been because I was a foreigner.

One does not look to London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, or New York, etc., as paragons of politeness.

It's a cultural thing with VERY deep roots. The Hopi and Navajo tribes of northeastern Arizona have lived in proximity to each other for about 500 years. The Hopis are town dwellers, and live in pueblos where living is in very close quarters indeed. The Navajo are nomadic, and choose their living sites on the basis of taking advantage of the weather, protecting themselves (including from evil spirits), and not being too close to their neighbors. You can put Navajos in cities, but it is usually a recipe for cultural disaster. Put me in a city (not suburbs, but a real city) and I'm grossly uncomfortable. And in places where suburbanites expect their neighbors to measure up to particular standards of behavior (whatever those happen to be), I'm also uncomfortable. Years of experience living in those places never brought comfort. Many are less flexible than I am, and being forced to live where they feel claustrophobic would bring resentment and, likely, cultural disaster.

Remember that America is an immigrant country, where the population is (or was) made of people willing to take big risks to achieve some degree of independence from their previous situation. The parts of the U.S. most like Europe are the parts where the population is most distantly descended from their pioneer ancestors.

Rick "grateful for the ability to live in some seclusion" Denney
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11513
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Post by windshieldbug »

Michael Crichton was right.
We need more dinosaurs!

<img src="http://www.cinema.com/image_lib/3950_117g.jpg" width="400">
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5679
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

Rick Denney wrote:The real problem is the number of people on the planet. Now, there's a problem whose alternative solutions really frighten me.
Ah, the comforting thing is that eventually, Nature steps in and fixes things up, whether it's an overpopulation of yeast in your Bordeaux or possums in your orchard.

And if you think that mankind has the technology to overcome nature, I humbly submit the case of kudzu and zerbra mussels... :lol:

Maybe we're overdue for a pandemic...
tubeast
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:59 pm
Location: Buers, Austria

Post by tubeast »

What if we define our time to be the currency by which to determine the price of things ? Take the average netto income and calculate how long one needs to work to get a gallon of gasoline ? No inflation there. Time is the only stuff we always get at the same rate: 24 hours a day.

Bloke, I didn´t know about John Henry. The kind of work he represents is one part of the spectrum of qualification required in setting up, running and maintaining a railroad. And probably not the biggest part nowadays, too.

Where I live, I can´t get EVERY place by public transportation, and definitely not any time I want. But it´s a 15 minutes bike ride to work, or a 45 minute gentle jogging tour. (Done both to get to work. Thank Goodness there are showers.) My employer even supplies free bus transit from the surrounding valleys to work, since that´s much cheaper than the price for acres of parking lot.
(Plus, our factory´s boundaries are limited by roads to the east and west, and lakes / environmentally protected grounds to the north and south making it impossible to expand our factory in any direction. Productive ground is more important than parking lots ) There are several times a day one can get a ride on those buses: arrival a plant at 7, departure at 16:30 (normal shift) or 18:30 (2 hours overtime).

It´s always possible to bike down to the shop, get a rucksack´s worth of groceries and live healthily in the process.
Yes, even in our rural area it would be possible not to own a car, and you can defintely get by with just one per family.
Considering the costs of owning one (some 80€ per month for insurance/taxes, some 60€ per visit to the gas station, maybe 1.5 times a month, about 150€ per month to save for the NEXT car), car rentals and taxis become really friendly-faced alternatives if you definitely NEED a car for a special occasion.
Hans
Melton 46 S
1903 or earlier GLIER Helicon, customized Hermuth MP
2009 WILLSON 6400 RZ5, customized GEWA 52 + Wessex "Chief"
MW HoJo 2011 FA, Wessex "Chief"
User avatar
LoyalTubist
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Arcadia, CA
Contact:

Post by LoyalTubist »

I had to go to a local discount department store today to buy a car funnel (Pep Boys was out of them)...

In front of the store, the everpresent petition getters were trying to get registered voters to sign to get a proposition on the November California ballot to get gasoline prices lower. "Sorry, guys," I told them, "It isn't about politics. It's simple economics. Most of the world pays more at the pump than we do, especially when you consider how much money they earn."

It takes me roughly 15 minutes to pay for a gallon of gasoline. It takes a taxicab driver in Singapore about an hour to buy a gallon of gas. I think we're doing pretty well.

No one complained when they took out the drinking fountains and started charging a dollar a bottle for Sparkletts water!
________________________________________________________
You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
User avatar
LoyalTubist
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Arcadia, CA
Contact:

Post by LoyalTubist »

Sparkletts, for those who live out of its marketing area, is the most common household bottled water sold and should only cost, at the most, 35 cents a bottle for the individual size.

http://www.sparkletts.com/

:D
________________________________________________________
You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
ArnoldGottlieb
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

corbasse wrote:
ArnoldGottlieb wrote:
tubiker wrote: Sorry but that's got to be a joke - OK if you live in the big urban centre's, but if you live out in the sticks you gotta have a car to get to the train..............

:(

Andrew Murray
Sorry. No Joke. I've explained later in this thread that my experience is limited to germany, and the fact that I could live in a suburb and train it to work. As far as living in the sticks, and living in the UK you're probably right. Are there any gigs in the sticks where you live?
Peace.
ASG
It seems indeed your experience is limited to certain parts of Germany. It very much depends on local circumstances. There are large parts of Europe where a car is the only practical means of transportation.
I bet there are plenty of large U.S. cities where you can get around well without a car?

Most of my Dutch colleagues don't even own a car. It's expensive to own one, let alone drive it, and in most cities where the work is, there's no place to park + you need a $$$$ permit. You can get almost anywhere anytime with the combination bike/public transport, At least to the places that are large enough to have a concert venue.
Only 100 miles to the south, here in Belgium, I don't have any colleague who doesn't own at least 1 car. The infrastructure is simply such that you need one to be able to get back from your gigs. Not that there is a lack of public transport. We have the densest railroad network in the world! It's the rest of the picture that doesn't fit.

BTW, where do you think we get the power needed to drive the trains from? Most of it is fossil fuel........
Howdy,
I have no idea where we'll get the fossil fuel to run trains, but I'd be interested to know how much more it would cost to run a full or half full train.
Your point about lots of American cities where one could get around well with out a car......
As a touring musician I've played in lot's of cities, and the one's in America that come to mind which rival a medium sized European City are New York, New York, New York, and New York. So I guess you're right.
Peace.
ASG
Post Reply