Big box stores

[Matt G]

My problem was being able to ask a salesperson things like "How much light does one of these fixutres put out? " or "What's the radius and angle of coverage? " or "Have you had good experience with these or are they a POS? " Seeing as how these things are low-voltage, installation was straightforward.

Chuck, you'll find what you need here for information:

http://www.intermatic.com/?action=div&did=1

The site is a bit laborious because of Macromedia Flash movies, but all of the info is there. They have a method for tech support also.

This is the brand you'll more than likely find in any blue box, orange box, hardware store, and distributor.

[Chuck(G)]

1) the sales guy won't know any of that. You can read the box just as well, no better that most.

2) the first 2 items shold be on the box or in the docs, in the box.

3) no salesman is going to telll you they are selluing junk, even if they know they are. Only outside info will give you that. Like magazine reviews, or individual opinions.

The box doesn't say any of what I was interested in. Just had pictures and a statement of what was in the box.

We're not selling used cars here, I expect a salesman to know his merchandise (or is that a quaint notion nowadays?) and be able to suggest a product suited to my needs. Golly, if you watched the TV commercials, you'd think that's what they did...

Why even have a salesperson otherwise?

Since Joe S. runs a retail business, I'm sure he'd have a take on what a good salesperson does. And I'll bet it's not "Trumpets? Over there on the far wall" and walk away...

Matt, you hit the nail on the head. It's an Intermatic unit and the online presentation was useful. In any case, it's all installed and it works just fine. BTW, a low-power RF signal generator wasn't strong enough to show the underground route, so I modified an old switching power supply to serve as a signal source and the cable path showed up very nicely. It wasn't where the blueprint showed, but I found it.

[ThomasDodd]

The box doesn't say any of what I was interested in. Just had pictures and a statement of what was in the box.

Strange. Unless it's white box for contractors. You don't find that much in the retail stores.
I bough a motion sensitive spot last year, so the light output depends on the bule I pick, as does the area illuminated. But the sensor was descrbed on the box and in the docs, along with the power rating.

We're not selling used cars here, I expect a salesman to know his merchandise (or is that a quaint notion nowadays?) and be able to suggest a product suited to my needs. Golly, if you watched the TV commercials, you'd think that's what they did...

Why even have a salesperson otherwise?

Most "salesmen" today are there to direct customers to the general merchandise locations. And many cannot even do that. They have verry little knowledge of any merchandise. Oh, and thell help you get stuff from the top shelf, or get it to the register. If you're lucky they will help get it to the car.

There are exceptions, but the knowledge level is inversely porportional to the number of employees. So in Joes one man shop he knows all the merchandise, inside out. Go to a big chain store with 1000 employees and many will only know where the different instruments are in the store. The couldn't tell you the difference in a Conn or Besson or Yamaha, except the price.

The musical instument business, especially winds is not as bad yet. But Go to a big guitar shop and ask about the differences in the strat look alikes. Try it with 5 different people, after learning the truth. I'd be surprized if 1 was even close.

[Dan Schultz]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

While this may be funny in context, let us not forget that musicians are more than guilty of there own problems. I've done plenty quintet gigs that I got $75-100 for 15-30 minutes of music.

Does that cover your preparation time, getting to/from the gig, your $7,000 horn, your tux, or the fact that you could have been doing something else? I usually find that when I play for pay, the dollars really dry up when I consider everything.

[Matt G]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

While this may be funny in context, let us not forget that musicians are more than guilty of there own problems. I've done plenty quintet gigs that I got $75-100 for 15-30 minutes of music.

Does that cover your preparation time, getting to/from the gig, your $7,000 horn, your tux, or the fact that you could have been doing something else? I usually find that when I play for pay, the dollars really dry up when I consider everything.

Thanks for making my point.

But then "we" had to go to "school" and we need "tools" to do this. So does every electrician. All of that overhead is included in the charge plus transportation, etc.

Id est, the electrician is not charging you for the cost to do just the job itself, but the cost of the job and all other overhead that got him to your door.

Electricians must be trained to be liscensed. More so than any wind blower. The amount of tools that the average electrician must have to be able to do residential/light commercial work is probably on par with the average musician. Plus, how many musicians are liscensed and bonded? Oh, and we push air through the horn, that is free. To fix stuff requires parts and supplies.

Notice most of the guys popping up here are probably mechanically inclined enough to fix most of their own stuff. Just like if I were to say that you all overcharge for cleaning my horn because it only takes about $5 worth of chemicals for me to do it myself. I wouldn't because I worked in a repair shop, cleaning horns. I know it took my time and patience. I also had to do prep work and their was a special area just to clean horns. I understood what went into it. And I have paid since then to have my horn professionally cleaned and not said one thing about the charge. That is because, I like many others, understood that the marginal utility of having someone else do this for me outweighed me doing it myself. The group of perceived benefits outweighed the service price.

How many people here have made their own cabinets? Real cabinets. Like the ones in your kitchen. Something that you wouldn't be embarassed to show other people?

Probably very few. That is because carpentry is far less dabbled in by the average homeowner. Mostly because the tools are even more expensive to do the job right and the work can't be hidden by a plastic wall plate or a piece of drywall.

Hey here is something interesting. A musician is a laborer like every other specialty labor service. Heck, they even have a union for us!

[Chuck(G)]

How many people here have made their own cabinets? Real cabinets. Like the ones in your kitchen. Something that you wouldn't be embarassed to show other people?

Probably very few. That is because carpentry is far less dabbled in by the average homeowner. Mostly because the tools are even more expensive to do the job right and the work can't be hidden by a plastic wall plate or a piece of drywall.

You'd be surprised. I did (and still do) build furniture, including cabinets. PBS doesn't run "The New Yankee Workshop" because no one watches it. Compared to the cost of a top-quality finished piece of furniture, the cost of the necessary tools isn't all that great. It's actually a very affordable hobby.

If you live in a major metro area, you probably have a "Woodcraft" store or a close cousin of it inearby. Heck, the guy across the road doesn't even own the tools and he built all the cabinets in his kitchen by signing up for an evening course at a local community college.

[ThomasDodd]

Just like if I were to say that you all overcharge for cleaning my horn because it only takes about $5 worth of chemicals for me to do it myself.
...
The group of perceived benefits outweighed the service price.

How many people here have made their own cabinets? Real cabinets. Like the ones in your kitchen. Something that you wouldn't be embarassed to show other people?

Probably very few. That is because carpentry is far less dabbled in by the average homeowner. Mostly because the tools are even more expensive to do the job right

In both cases mentioned and most others, access to the proper tools is the biggest issue.

Example, the horn cleaning. For a trumpet, it's just the chemicals, which I doubt the average player could aquire in the needed quantity. You'd have to but gallons of the stuff. For a tuba, you also have trouble with getting a tub to hold the chemicals.

For any cabinets or furiture, the equipment is again an issue. I build a huge shed with just a circle saw. But for cabinets you need a planer/joiner, a good miter saw, lot's of clamps, and a router. That's a minimum. For most $1000 in tools for one job doesn't work, while a $30 circle saw will be used for many projects.

If I had access to a decent shop with the tools needed for a reasonable fee, I'd quicly replace the crappy cabinets in my house.

[Matt G]

Heck, they even have a union for us!

I believe the musicians and the electricians are under the same umbrella union that has been going around to some until-November-2 headquarters of folks they don't like and busting things up a bit... (maybe creating a few rewiring jobs for themselves, etc.)

That's why I gave up on the union (AFM). Too much cost. Too much politics. Too little actual, tangible benefits.

I probably won't be joining any other unions for the remainder of my days...

Which should be a long, long time.

BTW, the real troublemakers are the Teamsters/Laborers. While the other unions (Carpenters, Electricians, Pipefitters, Boilermakers, etc.) can be a pain to deal with, at least they have a perceived skill. When you work on a job site with laborers, you see the real deal in union wrong-doing. Guys that just drive a beat up F150 around making deliveries at their own pace making good money even though the only skill they have is driving and lifting. They also seem to have the largest number of convicted criminals in their ranks. It is not a pretty site to see the laborers on a job site.

[Rick Denney]

BTW, you don't have to pull a permit on any work like that in most jurisdicitons. Permits are for service upgrades and additions/remodeling or sub-panels.

So, how much would it cost and how long would it take to install a 60-amp sub-panel with a transfer switch for a backup generator?

I bought the generator from the local equipment store where I also bought my tractor and snowblower. Good people, but what they stock is always the best of the best, and what they don't stock is always junk. I expect that sort of attitude.

Their 100-amp transfer switch was $300. Instead, I bought a 60-amp sub-panel with a built-in transfer switch for $110 at Home Depot. With all the breakers, receptacles, wire, junction boxes, and so on that I needed, I spent $400 so that I could hook up a $700 generator and meet code.

How much would that have been had I called an electrician? First, he would not have used the convenient small box I found at HD. He'd have used the big overkill switch from the equipment store (or his favorite supplier). He'd have had to pull a permit and obtain inspections, and my bet is that the whole thing would have cost a grand (in addition to the generator), not fit in the space where I wanted to put it, and still not be finished. And, based on what I saw in my existing panels when I pulled the covers, it still would not meet code. I spent two of the four hours the project took rewiring the double-taps in the breaker box.

Let's face it, both retail and service industries are fast approaching the point where people have to know how to do everything themselves, just like they did 100 years ago. To me, this is the result of the belief that college is a birthright like high school and the resulting collapse of the apprenticeship path for people without the inclination or resources to attend college. I find myself knowing more than most service people we hire, and having to spend a ridiculous amount of time cleaning up after their sloppiness.

Rick "thinking Home Depot is a symptom, not a disease" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Careful Rick! If you recall, I brought up this topic several times on "old TubeNet" and caught flames every time I did.

Who says you get to have all the fun?

Rick "who drive his head into a brick wall with the best of them" Denney