Disturbing social trends

[Rick Denney]

The vast majority of women employed here are in the call center and administrative assistants, which have the lowest pay of any positions....

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

Now, of the students I see at the annual meetings of professional and research organizations, I see one woman for perhaps every five men. In 25 years, will female engineers with 25 years of experience complain that only 20% of the people at their level are women?

I wonder if those trends are related? Don't you think it will take women as long to progress up the ladder as men?

Where are you expecting these women to come from, if they don't choose this line of work in college like the men did?

In many cases, women self-select into roles they perceive as being more favorable or satisfying, and engineering doesn't seem to be one of those fields.

I really don't think Texas A&M told entering women that engineering was a man's profession. Those same women, as girls, were generally better at math and science than the men when they were in high school, and Texas A&M would have been most pleased to have them in their engineering program. But they didn't want to be there. Why is that? The lack of women in engineering may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My observation of women in my field with my level of experience holds. I can't explain it, but I can't explain it away, either. Some are quite competent, some are just adequate, and some are real assholes. Just like men. But the assholes are generally more ruthless than any man, because the men who are that ruthless are absolutely shunned and isolated by other men who don't want to be around them. Men of my age who I know are scared to do that with the aggressive women.

Eventually, things will even out. But careers last 30-40 years, and it takes a while for a change to fully assimilate. Those who are CEO's now were training back in the 60's or early 70's when women just beginning to undertake that career path. 50 years from, now, things will be much more even. Being a CEO usually requires some decades of experience, unless one is creating a new company from scratch in a line of work where decades of experience is not essential to success.

Rick "who has lost a number of projects to women-owned businesses who received special consideration, and who has endured incompetent work in higher than usual percentages from minority-owned and women-owned sub-contractors who were selected solely to meet government mandates" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

Men's brains are differently from women's brains. Not misogyny, but a statement of fact:

http://www.newhorizons.org/neuro/diamon ... female.htm

No one's sure exactly what this means, but I have a theory...

Men (and boys) seem to like toys more than women in my experience. One of the lists I belong to is for Classic Computer hobbyists. Yes, there are strange people out there who give the living room over to a VAX or other large system, complete with tape drives, HVAC and electric bill. These same folks rent warehouse space to store their goodies and rent large trucks and drive a thousand miles to save something from the scrap metal dealer.

I'm not one of those people; the list is a convenient place to dispose of the detritus that I've accumulated during my years in the computer biz. Oddly, some of it turns out to be desirable. It's an odd feeling that stuff you purchased new is now considered to be "vintage".

There is not a single woman on the list. My guess is that old computer hardware isn't that appealing. To the men on the list, it's like they've got the best toys ever

[MartyNeilan]

One of the lists I belong to is for Classic Computer hobbyists. Yes, there are strange people out there who give the living room over to a VAX or other large system, complete with tape drives, HVAC and electric bill. ... My guess is that old computer hardware isn't that appealing. To the men on the list, it's like they've got the best toys ever

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side. All it takes is one data check on reel 8 of 9 in the output of a sort and you can easily lose the better part of a shift. While some of that stuff may have looked cool, I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

[windshieldbug]

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side

Obviously few, if any, else why would they reassemble such an array in their living room? Masochists? Where do you put the tape library? The bathroom?

[Chuck(G)]

I wonder how many of these people had to make their living on this equipment, especially on the operations or support side

Obviously few, if any, else why would they reassemble such an array in their living room? Masochists? Where do you put the tape library? The bathroom?

The reverse is true, for the hard-bitten ones. More than a few were project engineers or field engineers. Some are admittedly newbies and some are downright scary:

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html

An Apple I (just a printed circuit board, really) recreation sold for over $1700 on eBay. That's a recreation, not an original.

It'd be interesting to see if proportion of tuba collectors is the same among males and female tuba players. My guess is that most of them are male. "Tuba collector" in this case might be loosely defined as one who owns 5 or more tubas.

[Rick Denney]

...and some are downright scary:

What it tells me is that some people are tenaciously unwilling to give up knowledge that they attained through great effort.

Rick "retoring a motorhome of the vintage of cars he worked on in high school" Denney

[MaryAnn]

The vast majority of women employed here are in the call center and administrative assistants, which have the lowest pay of any positions....

When I was in engineering school, there was one woman among my classmates for every 20 men, at least. Looking around my industry, among people with around 25 years of experience, there is perhaps one woman for every 20 men. And the women I can think of are at the same level as the men, on average (some are higher, some are lower).

< big snip >

Rick <snip>

You seem to be responding to some things I don't think I said. While my department is engineers, the managers and VPs and the CEO are not engineers; they are primarily accountants and lawyers. One of the big movements in this company in the last few years has been the denigration of engineers in general as being incapable of communicating with management in any intelligible way. The engineers' viewpoint that the deficit is in the intelligence level of the managers has not won extra points. I was responding to someone's post that it seemed that everyone except white males seemed to be getting all the jobs; and that in the company I work in, it sure doesn't look that way.

As for women not going into engineering....I agree completely. I'm in the odd position of being on the fence, not having much in common with most women (I can't fathom why they want to wear uncomfortable clothing and primp for an hour in front of the mirror) and not fitting in with the men either, because they make assumptions based on the fact that I'm female. I'm automatically excluded from, for example, business discussions and decisions that occur in the rest room. Men don't realize the fact that they gang together as men and exclude women de facto. Some women get really, really mad about this, react to it, and get the reputation of being "aggressive." Just as people of color react to being stopped by the police every time they happen to wander into a wrong scenario.

Rick, your frustration at losing contracts to minorities based on government mandates matches up quite well to the frustration of those same minorities at not getting contracts in the past due to the good ole boys' club that still runs the country and most of the world. Yes, I think things will even up in time, but it's going to be quite a long while, with a lot of attitudes needing to change. And I doubt that fairness will ever rule; just the pendulum will swing back and forth.

One reason I like the concept of re-incarnation is that I think everybody should have to go through life in all types of shoes so that the entire education is received, and not just a tendril of it.

MA

[TubaRay]

I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

Now that's fragile!!!

[Chuck(G)]

I do not miss seeing walls and walls of 1600 BPI 9 inch reel drives that have to be constantly "cleaned and fed," and dealing with tapes that are a fragile as an American Idol contestant's ego.

Now that's fragile!!!

OT:

Give me a 2400' reel of 9 track tape any day over a DC-anything cartridge when it comes to robustness. We routinely handle 20 and 30 year old 9 track tapes without incident. OTOH, I've yet to see a DC-100 of similar age that can be read at all.

Same goes for floppies--give me 8" anytime over the smaller formats.

[Shockwave]

The reason more adult males stay home and mooch is that opportunities for less ambitious males to live comfortably have dried up. In the past one could easily become a factory worker, or after a not too involved apprenticeship a tradesman and do that simple job until retirement. Now most trades have become so complicated that they require more intelligence and drive (and money) just to get through the school. Women aren't as attracted to technical jobs and so aren't as strongly affected.

Any job that doesn't require schooling is probably either a sales job where one needs to be strongly motivated or is dominated by immigrants who had the ambition to leave their own countries to work here for what we consider peanuts. Either way a single person doesn't earn enough for a decent living because prices are geared toward two income families with good credit ratings that borrow large amounts of money in addition to spending what they earn. Even if the unambitious person does land a decent job, they will be competing whether they like it or not with the "typical american worker" who typically works a lot more than 40 hours in a week and usually more days than 5.

Ambition is heavily rewarded in our society, so of course we see more successful women and minorities as their opportunities improve, but the person who just wants to get by is gradually being degraded to bum status even though they arent bums. Those that can live comfortably do so by staying with their parents who probably are no more ambitious themselves but who grew up in a time when ambition and workaholism weren't so necessary.

-Eric

[Matt G]

The reason more adult males stay home and mooch is that opportunities for less ambitious males to live comfortably have dried up. In the past one could easily become a factory worker, or after a not too involved apprenticeship a tradesman and do that simple job until retirement. Now most trades have become so complicated that they require more intelligence and drive (and money) just to get through the school. Women aren't as attracted to technical jobs and so aren't as strongly affected.

That is a bit false.

If you want to be an Electrician or Plumber, just go down to the local union hall or licensing agency. Guys who have a little bit of sense and are willing to do this type of work are in high demand.

Unfortunately, both of these have an 8,000 hour apprenticeship (4 year). However, you do begin making a decent, livable wage on day one.

The jobs that have dried up are the "easy" white collar jobs. Couple with the realization that many folks (both male and female) feel better with dealing with females as opposed to males in customer service situations, you can see the decline. Being a female sales person or customer service rep doesn't normally carry the stigma that a few poor examples (to use Rick's term: assholes) have given to males.

[Rick Denney]

One of the big movements in this company in the last few years has been the denigration of engineers in general as being incapable of communicating with management in any intelligible way. The engineers' viewpoint that the deficit is in the intelligence level of the managers has not won extra points.

...I'm automatically excluded from, for example, business discussions and decisions that occur in the rest room. Men don't realize the fact that they gang together as men and exclude women de facto. Some women get really, really mad about this, react to it, and get the reputation of being "aggressive." Just as people of color react to being stopped by the police every time they happen to wander into a wrong scenario.

...Rick, your frustration at losing contracts to minorities based on government mandates matches up quite well to the frustration of those same minorities at not getting contracts in the past due to the good ole boys' club that still runs the country and most of the world.

On your first point, yes, yes, and more yes. I feel like I can explain things better than most accountants and lawyers, but am rarely given the opportunity to in the business world. Plus, I think I understand the true mechanics of processes that they can only describe by their effects. Most of them don't even know the difference.

I have never had a "business" discussion in a men's room. Ever. Or on a golf course. I think this is vastly overblown. And I have NEVER worked in a professional situation where the men "gang together" exclusive of the women. That does happen in social circles around here (more than in Texas where I grew up), but the discussions at those exclusionary moments usually resolve around cars, guns, and women--the only business discussion is false bragging, which nobody believes and everyone moves on quickly after the guilty party is done. There may be little social groups of men to make investments together and the like, but there is nothing preventing women from doing the same.

And I have never, ever seen or been around a company that was excluded because of being owned by a woman or minority, even though I grew up in the south. I'm sure it happened once upon a time, but in all but a few places it must have been decades by now. Invariably, the companies that deliver the product that makes the prime contractor look good, and do it on time and within budget, will get the work. Minority-owned companies that are created solely to capitalize on set-asides often do not do these things. I can think of examples of both that I have worked with in the last several months alone. Our industry (like most technical professions) is filled with immigrants. For example, I have as many Iranian friends of my specialty as native-born Americans (they hang together much more than anglo-saxon males, believe me). I have been outnumbered by minorities in my various jobs for at least 75% of my career.

I recall a Hispanic woman complaining to me that Hispanics had no hope for advancement at the City of San Antonio. I pointed at the organization chart that was within view of both of us, and pointed to my boss, who was anglo. His boss was named Vega, and Vega's boss was Rodriguez, and his boss was Aceves, and his boss was Briseno, and his boss was the Mayor, who until just before that time had been Cisneros. (Those are all Hispanic names for those of you with terminal Gringo-mouth.) I told her that if we went by the org chart, any anglo could not hope to advance beyond middle management.

It's amazing what a sense of victimhood can lead one to perceive.

Rick "whose anecdotal evidence is no less compelling than anyone else's" Denney

[XtremeEuph]

bloke "whose poor Dad, during that time - as the President of the local SEARS Credit Union (a "side job" for him) - was regularly alternately called a "racist" and a "n _ _ _ _ _-lover".

Anyone ever read the book "To Kill A Mocking Bird"? heh just reminded me of that.......carry on

[Doug@GT]

bloke "whose poor Dad, during that time - as the President of the local SEARS Credit Union (a "side job" for him) - was regularly alternately called a "racist" and a "n _ _ _ _ _-lover".

When both sides hate you, it probably means you're doing the right thing.

When everybody hates you, you know you're doing the right thing.

[adam0408]

I have long thought that the ills of society today are being blamed on sex, race, color, etc. when they should simply be blamed on stupid, insipid, evil people.

A lot of these issues of race and gender discrimination stem from people's greed. A lot of individuals will do anything and step on anyone to get rich. The gender of said individuals and those getting stepped on these days is not (as) important (as it once was). It comes from the old sin of coveting what your neighbor has got. Humans are very territorial creatures, and when we see a threat to our territory, we lash out, all the while threatening other's territory who are above us in status. This is not gender or color specific.

Everyone in this society is greedy regardless of gender and color. Feminists, minorities, majorities, etc. We all want something that is better for us, and puts our group above all the rest. It seems that while everyone preaches equality, everyone wants just a few more rights and more special treatment for the group that they are a part of.

People blame it on "years of opression" and "unfair treatment in the past." I hate the fact that because I am a white male I get stamped as the bad guy by these extremists. This is useless in today's society. By now, most of the people that did the opressing (with the exception of some cases of opression of females perhaps) are long gone. Dead, or out of power. So now those with the proper color and gender equipment are the ones being blamed for it quite unfairly when they have done nothing to deserve such treatment.

I long for a time when people are simply judged by the content of their character and not by their color, gender or character of their ancestors. (to paraphrase Dr. King)

What if an axe murderer was found to be guilty after he died. We would find it absolutely ludicrous to punish his children for his crimes........

[TubaRay]

I long for a time when people are simply judged by the content of their character and not by their color, gender or character of their ancestors. (to paraphrase Dr. King)

What if an axe murderer was found to be guilty after he died. We would find it absolutely ludicrous to punish his children for his crimes........

Amen! and Amen!!!