l'il kiddies with Vehicles of Mass Destruction

[ThomasDodd]

Been there, done that. A lot of folks couldn't handle it, although it's pretty tame compared to the accident scene. I get to see the results of car crashes all the time in my job. Not pretty, but for me it's just another day at the office. Too bad they can't get the DE classes out to some major accident scenes.

Maybe not DE class, but a provision of the liscense is 10-20hr community service at crash sites. That is something that would be good for all. Our soiciety is to far removed for the realities of life and death. How many people (percentage of the population) have any idea how the steak in the grocery store ended up there? Or what a dead body looks like, before a mortician dressed it up?

Perhaps an indoctrination to reality would straighten most of them out.

[Rick Denney]

...I got his car number.
Called the police station...

Hint: DON'T DO THIS!

Policing the police ain't your job. If you want to do that, grow up, become a pillar of the community, get elected to City Council, and have at it. Or get a degree in criminology and work your way up to being their boss.

When I managed the traffic signals in Austin, I annoyed a cop who was being lazy about the duties for which we'd hired him (and yes, we were paying his overtime out of our department budget). It was associated with the making of the movie Nadine, in case you want a time and place. The result was that I had cops following me all over the place for a long time.

Rick "showing a lot of scars this week" Denney

[Rick Denney]

...We already infantilize our youth enough as it is - at some point we have to let them grow up and make their own mistakes...

I liked your post except for this portion. We "let" kids grow up? Would they ever grow up if we took so passive a role? Judging from a quick review of my generation (let alone the generations that are younger), it would appear that too many of our parents "allowed" us to grow up, with the result that not very many actually made it to adulthood. I know a lot of mid-40s teenagers, sad to say.

It seems to me that we push our kids into growing up, by steadily increasing their responsibilities and restricting their freedoms if they don't live up to those responsibilities. They have to show the responsibility before they get the freedom.

My parents raised me well and provided a good example, but when it came to the car, they should have taken driving privileges away from me on the first ticket. They didn't, and I'm lucky to have survived that portion of my growing up. I see the kids around here driving Daddy's pickup at 70 mph down a country road designed for horse and carriage and posted with a speed limit of 45. They get seen, and word gets back. Daddy says, "Don't do that, boy" but does not take away the privilege and not-so-secretly beams with pride that his kid has a fast truck.

Rental-car companies won't, repeat won't rent a car to anyone under 25. Considering who they do rent to, I'm amazed that parents are freer with their property.

Perhaps the way to push a kid into growing up would be to let him drive when it is his car he is driving--his car that he bought and that he insures with his money; money that he earned doing actual work. (Or "her"--the teenage girls are often worse than the boys.)

You can't write the law that way, hence my previous post. But if it were MY kids, that's the direction I'd want to go.

Rick "who, as should be obvious by now, doesn't have kids" Denney

[Lew]

...We already infantilize our youth enough as it is - at some point we have to let them grow up and make their own mistakes...

I liked your post except for this portion. We "let" kids grow up? Would they ever grow up if we took so passive a role? Judging from a quick review of my generation (let alone the generations that are younger), it would appear that too many of our parents "allowed" us to grow up, with the result that not very many actually made it to adulthood. I know a lot of mid-40s teenagers, sad to say.

It seems to me that we push our kids into growing up, by steadily increasing their responsibilities and restricting their freedoms if they don't live up to those responsibilities. They have to show the responsibility before they get the freedom.

Rick "who, as should be obvious by now, doesn't have kids" Denney

As a parent of 2 nearly grown up legal adults, the reality is there is only so much you can do as a parent to encourage your children to become responsible. In the end, they grow up, or not, in spite of what we do, not necessarily because of it. You can use the punish/reward cycle to encourage responsible behavior, but how children react to this in many ways depends on what they bring to the table.

I have 2 very different children, in spite of fair/equivalent treatment. One worked 2 jobs while attending an ivy league school and graduated with honors in 3 years. The other is at a community college taking the minimal full time load, and only working to the extent necessary to pay the bills that we refuse to pay. Both were given the same guidelines, treatment, rules, limitations, but what they learned from the experience was processed very differently. The nature vs. nuture argument has not been answered, but no matter what, it is clear to me that nature has a clear role in the end result.

[Rick Denney]

As a parent of 2 nearly grown up legal adults, the reality is there is only so much you can do as a parent to encourage your children to become responsible. In the end, they grow up, or not, in spite of what we do, not necessarily because of it. You can use the punish/reward cycle to encourage responsible behavior, but how children react to this in many ways depends on what they bring to the table...

Well said, and absolutely no disagreement from me.

You mentioned your underachieving #2 child. Even though he is not accomplishing as much as your other child, he is still living with his own choices. Thus, he will learn what that takes, and make further choices based on that. Even that may not work--people often choose foolishly even when they know better.

The difference is that there are many kids out there whose power to choose has never been developed or tested. They have never been left to face the consquences of their own choices, commensurate with the level of freedom they have been granted at the time. The kid who wrecks the car bought by Daddy is not facing his own consequences. The kid whose Dad has to pay $8000 a year in insurance because of three speeding tickets is not facing his own consequences. These kids too often become the kid who lives at home at age 28 because it's easier than providing for himself or the kid who cheats on his wife, spawn illegitimate children, and then expects his paramours to be raise them (or who pressures them into having an abortion). I'll bet you won't have to face many of those problems, though your kid might, depending on his choices.

Remember, I said teenagers have to be pushed into growing up, which may mean pushing them out of the house when it's time for them to provide for themselves. It sounds as though you've done just that.

Driving a car is often the first time a kid really has the freedome to rebel, and a previously well-behaved kid might start to lose it at that point. It's just too tempting--you can go faster just but exerting a little more foot pressure. The parents have to pull hard on the leash if that happens.

Rick "who knows too many mid-40's teenagers who were never pushed into paying their own consequences" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

I can't say more as one of them is a regular here and I don't want to give him any ammunition to torment his brother! :lol:

Off topic, but I'm pleased to see you follow both their activities enough to even read this BBS, let alone contribut to it. And to get in to the off topic discussion worthy of more praise than I can give.

Rest assued you efforts will be rewarded.

Also know, that those other parents you mentioned wouldn't be following these discussions.

[FarahShazam]

Okay, I'm a butthead...

However, I drove at 16, had my license and a huge big butt Ford Falcon Club wagon (ie van). I have, to this day, NEVER been in a wreck.

I'm scared to type this because I don't want fate to come knocking.

I also had lots and lots of driving lessons--took drivers ed, and had to have extra classes to help me along.

Sean, did NOT take drivers ed, and has totaled one car that I know of (4 years ago).

Maybe it has nothing to do with the age of the driver... Maybe it has to do with individual maturity and nurture.

(ducking out of the way of veggies flying at my head)

[tubatooter1940]

I got my license at 16 and was lucky.
My son got his at 16 and totaled two cars and his back.
my daughter got her license at 18,had two wrecks due only to her inexperience.At age 22 minus two days a truck ran her down and
killed her.
The huge increase in traffic in my small town makes it so risky for
a new driver to survive.I have only one grandson and I plan to lobby
for a huge delay in his application for a driving license.
Dennis

[tubatooter1940]

I got my license at 16 and was lucky.
My son got his at 16 and totaled two cars and his back.
my daughter got her license at 18,had two wrecks due only to her inexperience.At age 22 minus two days a truck ran her down and
killed her.
The huge increase in traffic in my small town makes it so risky for
a new driver to survive.I have only one grandson and I plan to lobby
for a huge delay in his application for a driving license.
Dennis

[CJ Krause]

***

[Tubatoad]

If more parents would actually parent their children and take active roles in their kids' lives, there wouldn't be half the problems there are with today's youth. When left to their own devices, they will become as shallow and self-serving as their absentee parents.
Doc

ABSOLUTELY!
We homeschool. 2 great kids, very responsible, also able to discern truth from lies and right from wrong.

As for the only unavoidable accidents being deer and falling limbs, oh how I wish that were true!
I've been rear-ended 5 times, sure wish I could figure a way of avoiding them, but the only solution is to stay home. Hard to get the boss to sign the paycheck.
Of the 5 hits, the worst one was from a man in his 40's.
Still, I agree with most of what's been said about young drivers, and rode with mine a lot longer than most folks around here.