dark topic

[Mojo workin']

Bullshit. You're all bullshit.

Enter the room shouting everyone down. I have no problem believing you're in criminal law.

And no matter the circumstances, criminals who are determined to commit their crimes will find access to the means of committing their crimes, regardless of any type of controls or limitations on access to firearms or other instruments of crime, or the lack thereof. That is the fundamental reason the criminal justice system exists

So how is my point of allowing responsible, non-criminal citizens to arm themselves against criminals so far out?

[Mojo workin']

gun totin' seventh graders !

All due respect, my advocacy was for adults only. No, guns don't belong in the hands of kids.

[windshieldbug]

IF YOU mess with a dope AT ALL - or allow your children to do so

That's not a very nice way to talk about me

[lgb&dtuba]

I will look into your assertion that these shooting sprees didn't use to happen, since I am rather young.

I'm not young, but looking into it seems like a good idea. So I googled "20th century mass shootings" and found this very interesting article:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3063882

The conclusions of the study cited take the reasons in a very different direction than we have discussed her so far. One quote from the article:

"Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame."

Another quote:

"In fact, Duwe found that mass murder was just as common during the 1920s and early 1930s as it is today. The difference is that then, mass murderers tended to be failed farmers who killed their families because they could no longer provide for them, then killed themselves. "

There are any number of other interesting things in that article. It's worth taking a few minutes to read.

[Doug@GT]

Thanks for the link, Jim. I do agree with Bloke, though--that guy does seem to be introducing a lot of extraneous ideology into his analysis.

On the other hand, might Bloke be concerned that if losers are treated with "public shame," it would knock a hole in his "want to be noticed" theory?

As far as schools go, there is a statistic worth repeating: the average middle school, high school, or college can expect an on-campus homicide about once every 12,000 years.

I'll take those odds.



Doug "the real problem in schools is expressed best by The Onion"

[lgb&dtuba]

"Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame."

I respect your ability to find pertinent sources and bring them to us, but I discount this particular source and comment as typical "newspeak"/political spin. All sorts of classic Marxist/Leninist buzzwords are found within just that one sentence.

bloke "no politics (please) "

Interesting.

Well, don't take that one paragraph out of context. Marxist interpretations are not really the slant the article was taking and I assure you that's not where I'm coming from. Looking at the paragraph in isolation I can see why you interpreted it that way, though.

The real point of this particular article in the context of this thread was that mass shootings are not a recent phenomenom, as has been asserted, and that if there's a common trait to the shooters (besides insanity) it's that they've been retaliating for real or imagined injuries and are "getting even". Going postal.

[lgb&dtuba]

It's up to you to accept the odds, but this particular statistic leaves out all of the assaults, attempted murders, thefts, drug deals, and other reasons the police keep a squad car and two cops at every secondary public school.

bloke "three shootings at secondary schools (a couple that resulted as murders) in Memphis within the last month"

I mentioned that I work at a university. That's only for the past 6 years. I spent the previous 30 years in private industry. Away from town. One (of the many) things I hate about my current job is that I now work in an area with much more crime. Hardly a month goes by without several reports of crime in and immediately around the university. I never really had to deal with beggers and assorted other street people people before coming to work here.

Some (a very few) of those crimes are commited by students but most of them are outsiders preying on the students. Usually because they are out walking around at 3 a.m. making targets of themselves. Or being naive in other creative ways.

They just installed and tested a campus wide warning system. Sirens. Amplified voice warnings. Instant messaging. All because of the UVA shootings.

So, I began my life with air raid drills (duck and cover) and now will hear sirens again

The next logical consequence of this trend in campus wide alarm systems happened yesterday across the other side of the state at Appachian State. They alarmed and locked down the university based on a report of a masked gunman approaching via a city street. Turns out it was a hoax and they caught the perpetrator. Probably called it in on his cell phone and showed up on caller id. Duh.

We'll be next.

[iiipopes]

I lament the loss of such an environment as well. Even growing up on a busy street, but in a small town, I still remember when door locking was optional, and we all slept with the windows wide open for the breeze (no screens) in the summer as we didn't have central air.

That same neighborhood in that same small town is now going down hill in the same way as bloke describes.

[Dylan King]

They would NOT do this if they could not KNOW FOR CERTAIN that their NAME would be mentioned over-and-over on national T.V., radio, and print media.

If the media would REFRAIN from mentioning the names of these people ...not even mention it ONCE...I believe it would all stop.

-------------------------------------------------------------

How close to on-target do you think my theory is regarding this?

Pretty close, my friend...

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

The Fall of Lucifer

Isaiah 14:12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:

‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “ All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.â€

[bearphonium]

Normal folks can't understand and make rational the thoughts/motives/intents of those who engage in irrational, anti-social behavior. Their reality is different than ours.

Goodgigs has a great reference to Gavin deBecker's book--it is what I have all the new recruits read when they start with the SO. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good stuff in his book On Combat pertaining to this topic.

[Rick Denney]

"Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame."

Another quote:

"In fact, Duwe found that mass murder was just as common during the 1920s and early 1930s as it is today. The difference is that then, mass murderers tended to be failed farmers who killed their families because they could no longer provide for them, then killed themselves. "

That sounds like a preconceived thesis shaping the data, not data revealing the truth.

Would he prefer that nearly everyone be equally destitute? That's the way it was in the 30's. Now, poor people in this country are wealthier than wealthy people were in past periods, and luxuriously wealthy by the standards of most of the world and most of history. But it isn't enough. Wealth is not what makes people happy. It's what they do with wealth that contributes to personal satisfaction, and humans are now more self-indulgent and narcissistic than in living memory.

I do not notice an overflowing of happiness in places were being poor was far more the norm.

Contentment is not related to wealth. It's a personal decision based on a view of the world that values personal morals and integrity. The loss of that has led to hopelessness. If the worst consequence of suicide is nothingness, then there are plenty of folks ready to line up. And taking a few of one's tormentors (real or imagined) for the same ride is no big deal, if being dead is just nothingness.

People don't do well with nihilism. People were more hopeful and cheerful during the Great Depression, when everyone was hungry, than now. Wealth just doesn't explain it.

Rick "blaming the loss of belief in eternal consequences" Denney

[lgb&dtuba]

Guess I shouldn't have quoted anything out of that article.

I think the point that the article was trying to make, and I was badly trying to make about some things that have been said in this thread is that

1. Mass shootings are nothing all that new.
2. Besides outright insanity the shooters have often been someone who was trying to "get even". That's not an either/or statement. The two often go together.

Examples:

1. The worst school massacre, the Bath School disaster, happened in 1927. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

2. If you read up on Columbine you'll see that it's mostly speculation about the motives since the shooters committed suicide and weren't around to question directly. Some say insanity and some say a combination of that and social problems. Way too much to go into here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_ ... l_massacre

3. There is some evidence that Charles Whitman, the shooter at the University of Texas in 1966 had a brain tumor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

4. In 1949 Howard Unruh shot and killed 13 people in Camden, New Jersey. He was probably suffering from what we call post traumatic stress syndrome today. Also, "He had trouble getting along with his neighbors, and his interactions with them deteriorated in the three months before his spree. He was considered a "mama's boy" and the subject of teasing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Unruh

The list goes on and on. Those were just a few examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that these types of incidents are always sensationalized in the media of the day leading to discussions like here about "what the heck is wrong with society and people today?" "What can we do to prevent it from ever happening again?"

1. People today are pretty much like people have always been.
2. There are and always have been head cases on the loose.
3. "Normal" people continue to pick on, tease, or otherwise torment anyone different from themselves not considering that their targets just might be head cases. (See #2)
4. Put someone under enough pressure, real or imagined, and something stands a good chance of snapping.

Best defense? Don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't pick on nerds.

[windshieldbug]

I say wouldn't you feel safer if I (a law abiding, permit carrying, crack shot) could take out a crazy person who has busted into your classroom ready to kill you before he (or she) has a chance to do any damage?

I'm not sure that arming the female Amish elementary students in Lancaster, PA is the answer, either.

[KevinMadden]

I say wouldn't you feel safer if I (a law abiding, permit carrying, crack shot) could take out a crazy person who has busted into your classroom ready to kill you before he (or she) has a chance to do any damage?

sure, but would I feel safer knowing also that the average drunken reveler could also be carrying a handgun?

[sungfw]

I say wouldn't you feel safer if I (a law abiding, permit carrying, crack shot) could take out a crazy person who has busted into your classroom ready to kill you before he (or she) has a chance to do any damage?

Having seen too many minor incidents at college sporting events escalate into major confrontations because someone felt "disrespected," NO, I WOULD NOT FEEL SAFER KNOWING YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IS CARRYING A GUN ON CAMPUS.

[lgb&dtuba]

Our man-o-lederhosen brought up a valid point (whether he meant to bring up this point or not...)

...the point being that (probably) the media COVER these acts and BRING THEM TO OUR ATTENTION more effectively than in the past.

I guess I was just asking a chicken/egg question about these crimes and the media effects vs. the media effects and these crimes.

Indeed.

The local media here is all full of the murder this week of the young lady who was the student body president at the University of NC. Where my wife works

Her body was found lying on the street a couple of blocks off campus. Her car was missing. She had no id and it took several days before she was even identified. The police are calling it a random act of violence while they do their CSI thing on the recovered car.

Not a mass shooting, but particularly heinous.

The event is tragic. And the media is milking it for all it's worth. My sympathies to her parents for their loss and what they are getting ready to go through as they arrive here and enter the media meat grinder.

[sungfw]

[quote="SOTStuba"As for allowing students and faculty who posses a permit to carry concealed weapons on campus, I believe would be a great step forward in the war on crime, especially crime that takes place in the classroom.[/quote]

Simply having a permit to carry a concealed weapon does not ensure that law-abiding permit holders will always handle them responsibly or always secure their gun(s) to prevent others from gaining access to them.

The fact, which not even the NRA disputes (and, FWIW, I'm an NRA member) is that a not insignificant percentage of gun-related homicides annually are committed by law-abiding, legal gun owners or members of their households who "lose their heads" in a moment of elevated stress/passion.

[lgb&dtuba]

Having more weapons out and about is certainly an idea floated from time to time. I truly wonder if those proposing that have really thought it through, even on a personal level.

For me it's simply not practical. First, it's actually not that easy to carry an effective concealed pistol. Sure, you can hide a mouse gun, but they aren't all that useful. Especially in the context of "hero at large", another concept that we could spend many hours discussing.

If you consider a 9mm as the smallest caliber effective you are still looking at a fairly heavy and bulky weapon. Since I'm talking about a "hero at large" weapon and not an up close and personal defense weapon then I'll stipulate that the smallest concealable 9mm's are not appropriate.

So, we're talking about a full size semiauto 9mm or larger or a .357 or larger revolver (4 inch or larger barrel).

Dirty Harry may have been able to conceal a .44 magnum under his suit coat (yeah, right) but we're not talking movies here.

Here in NC I hardly ever really need to wear a heavy coat, so hiding any full size handgun just isn't that easy. 9 months out of the year I'm wearing a knit shirt and bluejeans. No place for a full size semiauto or even a snub nosed .357.

Inside the waist band belly holster you say? Looks good in the ads where all the models are standing up. Behind the back holster (in or out of the waitband) and my shirtail hanging out? Try actually wearing one driving, sitting at a desk, etc. How about "print through"?

Never mind that the way the concealed carry laws are written you really cannot avoid carrying into areas you aren't allowed to if you attempted to carry on a regular basis.

But we'll discount the laws since we are fantasizing about walking around with a concealed weapon here.

Open carry, you say? Like the wild, wild west? Gun belts. Holsters. Anyone but me see problems with that? Besides all the societal issues how about mundane issues like weapon retension?

Of course, no matter how good a shot you are at the range pulling a weapon and using it properly while some head case is spraying bullets and people are going down around you is going to be iffy. You just aren't going to be the calm, steely eyed marksman you've been fantasizing. You're going to be terrified. The adrenaline is going to be pumping. You probably aren't going to be able hit the bad guy, even if you manage to pull that full sized weapon from it's well hidden place without shooting yourself in the process.

Don't think so? Google and read some of the articles by Masaad Ayoob who has been writing on that very topic for many years. Might be eye opening.

Jim "who can but doesn't - as far as you know" Wagner

P.S. You might as well fantasize about leaping over tall buildings, etc, while you're at it.

[windshieldbug]

The middle-east doesn't seem to me to be a particularly safe place, and I see all manner of concealed and non-concealed carry AND usage there all the time...

[lgb&dtuba]

Outwardly holstering automatically puts the wearer/bearer at a disadvantage, as they become the FIRST target of a violent criminal. A policeman-friend told me about a jerk who did this in a local Wendy's...The policeman came up behind him, took his gun, emptied the ammo (all without the jerk knowing it), tapped on the jerk's shoulder, showed the jerk his OWN gun, and said to the jerk, "Bang. You're dead."

Supporting what you said, about a mile from my house some years ago was a 7-11. After being robbed several times the owner started packing a .45 under his 7-11 jacket. Problem was that he'd show it to anyone who walked in and shoot off his mouth about what was going to happen to the next would be robber. I heard and saw him do this myself. I wasn't the only one in the store at the time. I doubt it was the only time he did it.

One Sunday morning not too long after that someone walked in, shot him dead and took the $20 out of his register. The police report said he was armed at the time but there was no sign that he'd had a chance to go for his weapon.

I don't think they ever caught the murderer. Odds are pretty good he'd heard the owner shooting off his mouth and never gave him a chance.