Stoopid Motorsikle Question

[dwaskew]

http://www.killacycle.com/" target="_blank

http://www.enertiabike.com/" target="_blank

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/" target="_blank

[elimia]

While there is virually no maintenance involved with a driveshaft, they have to turn some worm gears to operate. Mechanically, this seems to be less efficient and some energy loss than a simple chain or belt drive.

First time I've heard that one. From brief on-line survey, apparently worm gears have been used in shaft drives, even as late as a 1952 Sunbeam. You have one in your Virago? I'm pretty sure there is no worm gear in the drive on my Moto Guzzi.

As for fairings and windshields, there is a lot that can go wrong. A good one probably isn't going to look like a '60s police motorcycle, and it probably isn't going to be one-size-fits-all, but when it works, it decreases wind resistance and general road fatigue, that's my opinion. A bad one definitely makes it worse, though.

I'm no mechanic, I assume what is working in the driveshaft is some sort of vertical and horizontal gears. Looking at where the thing runs, I guess. I agree about the windshields providing comfort; my bottom line is fuel economy so I skip it.

I love the new energy economy - you haven't lived until you have thrown the euph into a Altieri bag on your back and zoom off on the bike.

[ken k]

OK friends and foes, I've been out of touch with the motorcycle world for a long, long time and my knowledge base is way outdated. But given the current gas price escalation, I'm considering getting one for transportation to and from work. Of course the debate concerning cost efficiency can go on forever on this, with taking into consideration the initial purchase price, helmets, insurance, tags and registration. Just how long I'd have to ride it before I start coming out ahead gas savings wise is beyond my reckoning. But this is one avenue I'm looking at.

The motorcycle I've found in my area at the price range I feel comfortable with ($1500) is a 1986 HONDA Nighthawk 700SC. All I know about this bike is that it has a 4-cylinder engine (good in my opinion) and a seat style that I like (because momma can snuggle close to me). I don't know what kind of mileage this bike would get, but I'm judging that with a large displacement 4-cylinder engine I'm probably looking at around 34 MPG.
Am I too far off base in my reckoning?
Does anybody have any experience with this particular motorcycle?

Hey schlepp, Nighthawks are about the most reliable bikes made. and very low maintenance, with hydraulic valve lifters, (no adjustments needed), shaft drive (no chain to oil or brake), and they just keep going and going and going, etc. In fact the 700SC you are talking about is on my short list. I get around 50-55 mpg on my 81 Yamaha Seca 550 (unless I redline it in every gear! which is alot of fun BTW), so i would think the 700's mpg would be in the 40's. How much gas can you buy for $1500? Obviously while you may be saving gas on the bike, you will not be saving money. Bikes are toys and you have to look at them as such, unless you are a diehard allweather rider, which I am not. Tires only last about 6 - 10 thousand miles, batteries rarely last more than 4 years, brakes , etc. need to be changed and the nighthawk has 4 carbs to tune and sync, you ain't tunin no chevy...
The 700 has plenty of get up and go for you, although since you are a tall one, it may feel a bit cramped. But how long are you going to be on the bike at one shot 20 - 30 minutes? it will be fine. I also like the Nighthawks from the 90's and ealy 2000s but they are more $ and have a chain (really not as big of a deal as the shafters and belters want you to believe.)
If you want to have some fun go for it. Keep an eye out for the cagers (car drivers) and take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course. if for no other reason than, they are free! I took the course with my wife after I had been riding for 6 years and finally learned how to ride the bike safely and with more control.

ken k

[bearphonium]

Lotta things to like about the Nighthawk, most of which Ken already said. Shaft drive and the auto adjusting lifters are a real plus, and the bike is just about bullet proof. And it's a fun bike to ride!

Ally"who has a 1300 Yamaha cruiser, but can't quite transport the tuba"House

[SplatterTone]

How long has it been since you listened to The Motorcycle Song?
Well, that's too long.
http://t-recs.net/mpegs/tubenet/motorcycle.wma
(from the Alice's Restaurant album)

[ken k]

http://www.pipeline.com/~randyo/NH_hstry.htm" target="_blank

http://hondanighthawks.net/" target="_blank

yes run quickly from that one.... You can get decent riders of that bike for around $2000, so that one is way over priced. he'll be sitting on that one for awhile. That 700 SC is a bit more sport oriented than the other Nighthawks fromt he 80's and a re a little more desirable so they usualy end up costing a bit more. If you find a 550 or 650 from the early 80's you can often get decent riders for $1500.

Above are some nighthwak sites with lots of info on the nighthawk line of bikes. Like I said eventually I want to get a 90's vintage one, but for now I am jsut enjoying my little Seca 550.

They are now making cool scooters also Honday reflex 250 and silverwing 600 (Yes a 600 scooter!) suzuki also makes a 400 and 650 Burgman. Yamaha has a 400 majesty and Kymco is importing scoots form Taiwan that are pretty decent also. 250s and 500s. You wont get one fo those for $1500 unforutnately. The nice thing with the scoots is they have lots of storage space under the seat (enough for two full face ehlmets usually) and they provide some leg protections so your pants don't get wet when you go through puddles on your way to work (if that matters to you. I dress fairly nice for school teaching, so i considered one. Still mey get one yet.) that economic stiulus check is burning a hole in my bank account you know....

ken "You could always get a smart car..." k

[Donn]

Personally, I also realized that most of my trips away from home either involve dragging my tuba with me (gigs) or dragging a bunch of horns back here from some school (repair work) ...

[Rick Denney]

Something else I think may be relevant to gas mileage (based on discussions wth friends, not empirical data) - chain/belt drive vs driveshaft. My Virago has a driveshaft. While there is virually no maintenance involved with a driveshaft, they have to turn some worm gears to operate. Mechanically, this seems to be less efficient and some energy loss than a simple chain or belt drive. My 750 cc Virago gets between 37-45 mpg and I don't ever goose it. My buddy, who has a newer model 750 cc Honda Shadow with a chain drive, never gets below 60 mpg no matter how hard/easy he rides it.

Two points:

1. Chain drives are wonderfully efficient (something like 97%), but for this to be true, the chain must be completely clean and well lubricated. A dirty chain's efficiency may dip down into the 70's. I've never seen the inside of a shaft-drive on a motorcyle, but I'm sure they don't use worm gears. I suspect they use hypoid gears that have teeth at 45 degrees to the longitudinal and lateral axes so that they mesh. These are also pretty efficient--probably much better than 90%. Plus, they can be protected by a completely enclosed chamber that also provides a constant oil bath for lubrication, so they stay at maximum efficiency for a long time. I doubt that the shaft drive is the reason your motorcycle gets less mileage than your friend's Honda (assuming it really does).

2. Motorcycle engines are classed by size only. Not all 750cc engines are made alike, and the power output and efficiency can vary probably by a factor of 3--maybe more. I just did a quick search, and found no professional reviews of motorcycles online that reported actual horsepower. The power available, and particularly how you use it, has a big impact on efficiency. Aerodynamic drag has even more.

But I did find a professional review of a Honda Shadow, and they reported fuel efficiency of 37-41 mpg. Maybe your friend is exaggerating.

Rick "who would never want a chain drive anyplace that has dust (and everywhere has dust), unless motorcycle mechanicking was a hobby" Denney

[MaryAnn]

Ah, bikes. Been looking at them too....there was a smaller Nighthawk that I missed, for a decent price. One of those "owned and ridden by an adult and stored in a garage" ones.

I rode a bike for 20 years and never tangled with a car. I realize there is a first time for everything.

My last bike, a Virago, was shaft drive. Prior to that I had a BMW 750 with shaft drive. After the BMW I managed to ride a 900 Ninja and a 700 Ninja. The Virago was strictly a commuter bike, and it did not handle well; too much rake. However it went decently and stopped really well. There is something called "shaft effect" that torques the bike sideways when you rev the engine; it's not a big deal but chain riders will notice the difference.

For me, the biggest concept (as opposed to *skill*) that a new rider needs is to realize that as a bike rider you are invisible to people. If you assume you can been seen/heard/noticed/etc, you WILL find yourself in an unwinnable conflict with something more massive than you are. For me, I want my bike to go well, stop well, handle well, because my philosophy is that if you are already out of the way they can't smoosh you flat on the tarmac. You can't rule out people who are insane, asleep, on drugs, drunk, etc. Your car will protect you somewhat but your bike will not. If you and the bike part company, you will meet again unpleasantly if one of you does not have an unpleasant encounter with something else in between. You learn to have a vehicle "run interference" for you in intersections where someone could come blasting on through a red light. Let them hit your interference vehicle before they hit you. Never go through a GREEN light without checking opposing traffic, because that is a good way to get shmooshed too. Learn to use the front brake properly.

Not for the faint of heart, and not for those with bad balance or beginner skills. If you can get through the first couple months intact, you might have learned enough to give yourself a fighting chance.


MA

[ken k]

Aw phooey! Give mama a ride or two, and she'll be just fine.

I had a 79 Gold Wing and rode it throughout college (when I didn't have to pack instruments around). I bought it from a professor for $500. It needed carb work and new tires. A friend of mine did the work and I was set. Only other thing I had to do was replace a cracked fairing mount, which I found easily at a bike junkyard for $7.50. It was an outstanding bike. Mileage was not a concern at the time, but I estimated it at 30-35, even with bags, trunk, fairing, and my fat ***. Eventually sold the bike to my dad. Man...was I sad about that. Even more sad when he traded it for a Honda Pacific Coast, although I grew to love that little bike (little like 800cc?) That's ok, since my dad no longer rides, and I've been offered the bike. I just need to figure out how the hell to get it here. Wayne, you make any runs up to Walmart HQ and Houston, or still just locally?

Doc

Ah the PC 800 another bike on my short list. If you ever want to sell it let me know.....
ken k

[Tubaryan12]

Aw phooey! Give mama a ride or two, and she'll be just fine.

I had a 79 Gold Wing and rode it throughout college (when I didn't have to pack instruments around). I bought it from a professor for $500. It needed carb work and new tires. A friend of mine did the work and I was set. Only other thing I had to do was replace a cracked fairing mount, which I found easily at a bike junkyard for $7.50. It was an outstanding bike. Mileage was not a concern at the time, but I estimated it at 30-35, even with bags, trunk, fairing, and my fat ***. Eventually sold the bike to my dad. Man...was I sad about that. Even more sad when he traded it for a Honda Pacific Coast, although I grew to love that little bike (little like 800cc?) That's ok, since my dad no longer rides, and I've been offered the bike. I just need to figure out how the hell to get it here. Wayne, you make any runs up to Walmart HQ and Houston, or still just locally?

Doc

Ah the PC 800 another bike on my short list. If you ever want to sell it let me know.....
ken k

You beat me to it. PC 800 is about the only bike that could make me want to ride again. Hopefully it is in Candy Glory Red.

[bearphonium]

That 'Wing looks nice. Aspencade?

[Donn]

That 'Wing looks nice. Aspencade?

Nope, it's an '81 Gold Wing Interstate GL 1100.

I've been talking to some folks on a Gold Wing board and their general opinion is that the seller is asking a premium price for a sub-premium bike.

Yeah, maybe. It's old and common as dirt, whatever shape it may be in. But you can really get taken out of the game by listening too hard to the old timers who saw someone get an '84 Goldwing from the owner's widow for $1000, in '97, and will forever after reckon that you're getting ripped off if you pay more (you, not them, because they're not in the market to buy one.) (Tubas are the same way sometimes, too, but thank heavens we're all looking out for ourselves and know what goes around, comes around - sooner or later, you're going to want to sell that Eb Giant.) It doesn't seem very likely to me that you'll find more motorcycle for less money, if that kind of a touring barge is what you go for and if it's really in decent shape. If the chase is more fun than the catch, then for sure, this probably isn't the one to go home with.

What kind of fuel economy would you expect with a big old beast like that?

Any Buell dealers in your area? For a while recently they were giving stuff away to get you to test ride their "Ulysses", big rough-road motorcycle. It's built for big guys, or at least long legged because of the extra suspension, it's supposed to get 60 mpg and it's supposed to be a riot to ride. And the best used price you're going to get is 3 or 4 times what you want to pay, but maybe you can steal one or something. If I didn't have this thing for Moto Guzzi, I'd be looking at it, but I'd ride it at the dealer and then buy one used somewhere. I've thought about taking that ride anyway, because even though I know my old Moto Guzzi is absolutely the perfect ride, it's a shame to hold opinions based in any way on ignorance. My point in bringing this up is, maybe you should do the same, before you join the Goldwing club. See if they'll check the suspension setup, it's individual and is supposed to make a big difference.

[Donn]

Besides, I'm shying away from anything that remotely resembles a Harley simply because of the way the passenger seat is usually constructed. It's usually a tiny little pad on top of the rear fender. No thanks.

I'm not one to promote anything that remotely resembles a Harley, so we seem to be on the same page there.

[Donn]

It seems as though it wasn't but a few years ago that there was a wide selection of used bikes on the market. Not today, and certainly not here. It's like trying to find a good used tuba in Amarillo.

I was curious enough to look at Craig's list for Amarillo. Unless it's busted right now (which happens), that was a shockingly slim selection. Could be craigslist isn't as popular there as it is here, where even Wenatchee (pop. ca. 28K) has an order of magnitude more /mcy listings, but I wonder if motorcycling itself is a tougher sell down there. I used to feel sorry for PNW motorcycle riders, because it's so wet and chilly here, but it doesn't really rain every day like they say, and now that I'm riding with appropriate protective clothing, a hot day can be a little miserable if I have to stop much.

"Hot" here means above 75 F, with low humidity.

"Appropriate protective clothing" means

• full face helmet
• longish gloves with reinforced knuckles
• boots with ankle protection
• jacket with armor pads in elbow/forearm, shoulder, back
• pants with armor pads shin/knee, thigh.

... and some of that stuff is hotter than it needs to be because of "waterproof" goretex style linings that you get whether you want them or not. It's also expensive, as you might guess. Can save money during your hospital visits, though. I took a little spill in an MSF course right after I bought the top half of that ensemble, and the suffering inflicted on my knee and foot convinced me to complete it (high percentage of injuries are below the knee, anyway.)

[Donn]

There is NO way humanly possible that riding in 75* could ever be uncomfortable. None. Wanna trade weather???

I'm not saying it's 75 F today. I would love that. Actually, I don't think it ever hit 60 F, but I could be wrong. On my motorcycle trip this morning, I wore a heavy wool shirt under the afore-mentioned jacket etc., and I was none too warm. Low to mid 50s, a sprinkle of rain. Grey all day. My lady is from near Houston, and she's not liking this for summer weather, nor am I.

I can't tell other motorcycle riders that they're crazy to do what they're doing, but I just don't care for pain and disfiguration myself. I'm not sure if I'd want to ride under the circumstances you describe (including Houston traffic, which I have seen), but I know people do it, so maybe you get used to it.

[elimia]

Something else I think may be relevant to gas mileage (based on discussions wth friends, not empirical data) - chain/belt drive vs driveshaft. My Virago has a driveshaft. While there is virually no maintenance involved with a driveshaft, they have to turn some worm gears to operate. Mechanically, this seems to be less efficient and some energy loss than a simple chain or belt drive. My 750 cc Virago gets between 37-45 mpg and I don't ever goose it. My buddy, who has a newer model 750 cc Honda Shadow with a chain drive, never gets below 60 mpg no matter how hard/easy he rides it.

Two points:

1. Chain drives are wonderfully efficient (something like 97%), but for this to be true, the chain must be completely clean and well lubricated. A dirty chain's efficiency may dip down into the 70's. I've never seen the inside of a shaft-drive on a motorcyle, but I'm sure they don't use worm gears. I suspect they use hypoid gears that have teeth at 45 degrees to the longitudinal and lateral axes so that they mesh. These are also pretty efficient--probably much better than 90%. Plus, they can be protected by a completely enclosed chamber that also provides a constant oil bath for lubrication, so they stay at maximum efficiency for a long time. I doubt that the shaft drive is the reason your motorcycle gets less mileage than your friend's Honda (assuming it really does).

2. Motorcycle engines are classed by size only. Not all 750cc engines are made alike, and the power output and efficiency can vary probably by a factor of 3--maybe more. I just did a quick search, and found no professional reviews of motorcycles online that reported actual horsepower. The power available, and particularly how you use it, has a big impact on efficiency. Aerodynamic drag has even more.

But I did find a professional review of a Honda Shadow, and they reported fuel efficiency of 37-41 mpg. Maybe your friend is exaggerating.

Rick "who would never want a chain drive anyplace that has dust (and everywhere has dust), unless motorcycle mechanicking was a hobby" Denney

...just getting back to reading all the posts on this one...

I'd postulated worm gears but your suggestion of matched 45 degree gear wheels makes sense. I'd heard from several (albeit non-engineering) friends that the chain drives were much more fuel efficient. I have been considering selling my Virago, which runs perfectly fine, for a 600cc chain drive Honda Shadow. They get around 58-60 mpg. I do have to travel down a gravel road each day to get to the highway and have been waffling on this as I don't want to have to spend a lot of time scrubbing grime off a chain.

Despite what you might have read on the review Rick, my buddy keeps a log of his mileage to calculate fuel economy. He is consistently getting around 60 mpg on his Shadow. I putter along on my Virago, no rapid starts or stops, and get 40 mpg on the nose. I'm not complaining too much as that is better than my Ford Ranger.

Kudos on the use of "hypoid gears" Rick - that's got to be a TubeNet first.

[funkcicle]

Being in the bike market myself, I'll chime in...

first off, "it's dangerous" isn't advice, it just means other people are afraid of it. Almost every person who's tried to talk me out of bike riding is a chain-smoker, but I just keep my mouth shut. That said: It's dangerous, but of course you know that.

If your main reason for buying a motorcycle is gas savings and low "buy-in", and not a love of riding, it may be worthwhile to evaluate your options. 35-40mpg is great compared to, say, a pickup truck, but there are easily a half dozen automobiles you can find in the same price range that will get the same or better mileage, and you can lug your tubas in them. A Geo Metro sure ain't as cool as a Goldwing, but it'll get 50mpg with the a/c on, do a U-turn in a single lane road, and keep you dry on a grocery run. Old Tercels, youngish Hyundai Accents, a lot of older compact cars get better mileage than even today's hybrids and Smart cars, and can be found for well under $3k.

Bloke's outlook on a motorcycle purchase is very healthy.. I myself am buying a motorcycle as a luxury-- the luxury to drive more than I can currently afford to. My main vehicle is a minivan, necessary for gigs(hauling PA, bass rig, multiple basses, and often another person or two and their gear, mostly local with frequent out of town jaunts) and indispensable to me.. 17mpg wasn't an issue when gas was $1.39, or even really when it was $2.39.. at $3.39 I started to worry, and at $4.29 it's hit me where it hurts. On the bright side it's reintroduced me to the joys of bicycling and showed me how much of my travel is actually "necessary", but I'm a social and recreational person with a spread out family and spread out friends and spread out interests. I take my free time very seriously, and the dent that the gas prices have made on my recreation has really been a big hit to my general morale.

I've managed to replace about 10% of my recreational driving with bicycling, but about 25 flat miles in one day is my limit. So we get to where I am now: straddling the fence between "small motorbike" and "big scooter", looking in roughly the same price range as yourself. Off the bat, I eliminated anything that gets less than 60mpg- my subjective point of "viable trade-off". For motorcycles I've found a few- the front runner(in my eyes) being the Honda Rebel.. 250cc, marketed as a "starter bike" (which for me, it is). Brand new they're not much over $3,000, and due to their high turn-over (when owners find themselves ready for a "bigger bike") they see little depreciation. And you get the peace-of-mind of riding a Honda. The used market for Viragos is great as well, and they can be found with a 250cc engine often in the $1,000-2,500 range. Beyond that, I've looked at and ridden some small Suzukis and a few ambiguous asian imports.

I should state that, even in my minivan, I'm not much of a freeway driver.. I enjoy country roads and state highways, and even on cross-country trips I tend to avoid the interstate system. On the Scooter side of things I've found that you pay about 20-40% more for the same sized engine, it's mainly for this reason ($ savings) that I'm also considering small-engined motorcycles. I came across the "Roketa" brand in my motorcycle search and rode a few.. "Roketa" is an Idianapolis based importing bringing scooters over mostly from Japan, and motorcycles and ATVs from what seems to be 4 or 5 different asian sources. None of the motorcycles compare favorably to their Honda or Yamaha counterparts (despite allegations of using components from the same sources), but their Scooters represent a significant increase in the quality-to-price ratio.. highway legal scooters yielding up to 120mpg for under $2k. Their "touring" model runs $2100 delivered straight from the importer, gets about 80mpg on a 240cc engine, and is a very comfortable ride up to about 60mph (advertised top speed of 75mph). They get cheaper as the engines get smaller, right down to about $800 for the one with a top speed of 40.

Don't know if any of this info is useful or relevant to you, just sharing what's relevant to me. I'm currently borrowing a Honda Rebel and love it.. I'm considering the 'touring' Roketa for economy and comfort, while trying to figure out the value(to me) of the peace-of-mind I'd get from owning a Honda. Best of luck in your quest!

[elimia]

I haven't got a bike yet, I missed out on the Gold Wing I was after because I was too slow in rounding up the cash. The plus to this though is the fact that it bought me time to smooth some of the wife's feathers that I had managed to ruffle by thinking about a bike in the first place. To me, this is far more important than gas savings.

I've had a motorcycle license since I was 15, so it's obvious that I enjoy riding. I've also had a nasty wreck on one in which I wasn't wearing a helmet and got to stay a few days in the hospital, I know the risks firsthand. Yes, I'm well aware that I could get an itsy bitsy used car cheap that will get 40+ MPG too. It would also be more pleasant when the weather gets bad too. I'm 51 years old now and still stand 6'-7.5" tall though and I just don't fit in them itsy bitsy cars like I used to be able to fold myself up for. I spent most of today cruising around town hitting garage sales in my wife's Geo Prizm and now my back is throbbing. I could ride my ten-speed to and from work. My job is 10 miles away from where I live. The last thing I want to do after working hard for 12 hours is to work to get home. Moving to a house closer to work is not an option, the surrounding neighborhood is bad and there's no way I'm living there.

The motorcycle may not be the correct solution for me, but it'll buy me some time until I can figure something else out.

Go for it Schlep, you won't regret it. Given that you're pushing 7 feet tall (dang that's tall!), getcha something that will fit you. Is being scrunched up on a Nighthawk any better than scrunched up in a Geo?

[bearphonium]

Schlep, does your new avatar mean you got a new motorsikle??