The Generation Gap

[brianggilbert]

Folks,

I post here because I love the ability to learn and enjoy from folks that have a lot of experience to share. Add to that the info from younger or less-seasoned contributors in terms of an idea, an approach, or just an anecdotal account of a recording, piece of literature, or a new technique I wasn't aware of...

If you've spent any time working with school-aged students, wouldn't you agree that the teacher "learns" from the student as well? I taught instrumental ensembles for 13 years, and I still think that some of these experienced posters on this site have FORGOTTEN more than I've ever learned.

I'm no longer teaching music everyday, but this forum is a way for me to have some outlet day-to-day with colleagues or (in a way of thinking) co-habitants in our little slice of the universe.

I too could do without the (less than) subtle attempts to impress others or receive compliments in a self-serving way. While youthful exuberance is a part of maturing and growing up, I still don't think that occasional "smack-down" ruins my TubeNet experience.

By and large, I look at the people on this site as a bunch of guys I'd like to have a beer with. Although the rare annoyance can happen, it would truthfully need to deteriorate a lot more to keep me from coming and reading.

[The Big Ben]

Look, i dont edit these posts.

Please do. Accuracy matters. You can turn a left handed tuba to a right handed tuba with one command on most any operating system and program. Don't make excuses why you can't do something correctly.

You wouldn't go walking around campus with your shoes untied, your hair uncombed and your fly open.

Why do you do it here?

Accuracy does matter. But, do you think people aren't intelligent enough to figure out a horn is flipped? I'm all for accuracy, but to compare how a tuba looks to personal appearance is just ridiculous. It's an ONLINE FORUM. No one is walking around anywhere, and if you ARE, you need to get off of whatever the hell you're taking.

Read his entire post then react to what I said.

Online, your words are all you have to present yourself. Shouldn't you try and look your best?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I should not have posted my gpa post, but im not going to be called stupid without backing it up

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've reread the entire thread and can't find one instance where anyone has called you stupid, James. Or even implied it. The regulars here don't do that.

[TMurphy]

Can I second the "there's more to be learned by listening" statement?? I've been reading TubeNet since around 1999 or 2000. My post count since the switch is not all that high. That's because most of the time, I just read. I try not to post unless I have a specific question, or a specific comment/answer to someone else's post. If I read a post that annoys me (for whatever reason), I will 99% of the time ignore it completely...I'm not about to be drawn into a flame war.

When I do post, I do my very best to be polite and respectful. I also try and make sure my posts are as grammatically correct as I am capable of making them. Why? Because someday, I just might make the drive down to that Army Conference in DC, or attend ITEC (if it's local enough), or some other tuba related event. When that happens, I'd like for some of the people I meet (and I would really enjoy meeting some of you!) to have a positive preconception of the kind of person I am, rather than a negative one. Whether or not I've been successful at this, I can't say. But I'll keep trying.

[MaryAnn]

My company has a leadership program; people in lead or supervisory positions are required to take a bunch of courses. They have titles like "Constructive Dialog," "Active Listening," and teach people skills that those promoted to supervisory positions based on technical skill, might not have.

I took a course a couple of months ago that was called...Generations in the Workplace. It was a half-day course, and by far the best of the several I've taken. It delineated groups based on, of course, age: the oldest group still in the workplace has people in it who grew up in hard econonic times; it is their view that it is a privilege to have a job; they don't particularly like change and figure the way they've done things all along should be good enough. The next group down, in age, is the Boomers. (I am one.) Boomers do things in groups (remember sit-ins, demonstrations, all these things done en masse in the 60s?) Boomers love meetings and always have to have a Mission Statement. Farther on down were the latch-key kids; they tend to be loners (very different from the Boomers) and want to be left alone to figure things out by themselves. They tend to disklike the meetings that the Boomers like to have. The youngest group, now coming up, was called the bubble-wrapped kids. They grew up in completely structured environments, with after-school activities and every hour of every day scheduled up. When they get into the workplace, they tend to just sit there, without asking questions or taking the initiative to learn their jobs; they've gone through a school system that defined self-esteem as something that is damaged by being told they failed at anything; they got praise no matter what they did.

What was interesting about the course was the suggestion that the Old TImers and the Bubble-Wraps get paired together; the bubble-wraps are like huge sponges and want to absorb information, and the Old-Timers want to pass on their knowledge.
Bad mixes are the Gen Xers and Bubble-wraps, and Bubble-wraps and Boomers, because their approach to knowledge and problem solving are so different.

This class helped me immensely with the young people in my workplace, because I understood so much better where they are coming from. What they need is a fatherly approach, as it were, and because they've never been told they failed at anything, they take great offense at suddenly hearing that for the first time. It just doesn't compute, and they will staunchly defend their position.

You can't change people's history; you can only take them where they are and try to help them grow. This applies across the board, to young, old, and all in between.

MA

[tofu]

One of things I lament the most about the current state of Tubenet is the loss of "Pros" who actively participated. Now there are different levels of Pros and the ones who have largely disappeared have been the ones from what I would call decently sized symphony orchestras or other groups where the majority of their income is from playing the tuba. I have seen some posts here of folks accusing a Pro of being mean or condecending. I've never seen what I personally would call a top level pro do that. In fact, it seems to me most of them have been extraordinarily patient with some know it all HS or College student. They deserve a level of respect for their tuba knowledge and should be accorded that respect even if you may have an honest difference of opinion on something. All too often you would just see a responder who apparently had no knowledge of who they were discoursing with or simply didn't care respond in such a foul obnoxious manner that many top level pros simply decided it isn't worth their time and effort to try to share their knowledge and experience with folks who had already decided that they know it all - already.

In it's best sense Tubenet serves as a lesson that fills in gaps one may have in ones own knowledge of tuba playing or serves as a refresher course on stuff one already knows or like me as you get older - forgot. I consider myself a serious amateur and have taken a lot of lessons in the 35 years I have played, but there is always stuff that for one reason or another didn't get covered enough and I have to admit I've been surprised by the degree of that.

One of the great things about Tubenet is that Sean doesn't really police it and that has given it a lot of lattitude. I agree with him that it is great to have new faces and ideas. I personally have never minded the repeating of certain favorite topics. It allows for new different takes on an old thread, serves as a refresher and quite frankly the search function (at least for me) sucks. I know some tubenetters get all bent out of shape if something like Silver vs Lacquer shows up again, but so what? Don't read that thread or participate if it gets you all hot and bothered. I personally try to enforce a 24 hour rule on myself when I see something that angers me and it is amazing how few times I end up posting the next day. I had hoped that the moderators would bring some decorum to some of the threads where some of our younger members seem all to eager to take on any and all comers like a drunk staggering out of a bar at 2 am. This I had hoped would keep more of the pros on board and halt the exodus. I'll be brutally honest here - I personally know I can learn a lot more about tuba playing from a top level pro then a HS kid and that isn't meant to be an idictment of HS kids. I have had the pleasure to play with several outstanding HS students over the last 20 years who have gone on to some of the best college tuba studios in the country and later became excellent band directors and pros.

Personally, when I see the way some of these posts are written it is hard to even discern what it is some posters are trying to say. While I'm not trying to be the spelling Nazi and I have made my share of writing mistakes, it is amazing the amount of poor spelling, grammer, syntax, and capitalization etc. that one has to wade through to try and even understand a post. Then you hear from the poster, "well I'm too busy to bother with that stuff". That basically sends a perceived message to the readers that I don't respect you enough to be bothered proof reading my own posts. My personal advice to young or new posters and some older ones as well is, post less and proofread more. You will be surprised at how much more serious you will be taken.

[WoodSheddin]

people ... don't accuse me of being stupid.

you're stupid

[lgb&dtuba]

I took a course a couple of months ago that was called...Generations in the Workplace.
MA

No disrespect to you Mary Ann, but like most all of those type courses it way over generalizes when it tries to categorize groups of people. I'm a boomer and I can tell you that nothing about that description, other than my age, fits that profile. I'm betting that quite a few people who post on this group would find the description of their age groups not a good fit as well. (And some will fit.)

Not all, if even very many boomers were hippies. That was the hype of the times. And most of us really don't like it when these courses or the media still try to paint us all that way - with the same brush. For sure I don't see me retiring to a commune in a little less than 4 years. As a systems programmer it's been my profession to deal with change on a daily basis. Anyone who has been in my profession for as long as I have (37 years) has dealt with sweeping changes.

Not to mention course after B.S. course trying to pidgeon hole people so managers don't have to do their jobs and deal with the individuals who work for them as the individuals they are.

Jim "and I really really hate meetings" Wagner

[MileMarkerZero]

I don't post often; certainly not nearly as much as a few years ago. But I visit the forum daily. I can tell you these truths as I see them:

- the overall level of back-and-forth has not really elevated over the years. There have always been the nasties that should just hit the back button instead of the reply button. What has changed is the willingness to "go there" in terms of what is said. People seem much less likely to hold their tongues and try to give a less brutal response. The willingness to be mean for the sake of being mean has greatly elevated.

- Over the years, and after reading thousands of posts, I can honestly say that there are some regulars on here that I don't ever care to meet. Whatever their real-life personalities are like, on here they consistently and unapologetically make an *** of themselves. There are some posters that I just automatically skip over their replies unless I have to go back and read it for something that changed the direction of a thread.

- every one of us was a n00b at some point. There might not have been a tubenet around back in those days, but you were still a n00b, and you made n00by errors, said n00by things, did n00by stuff and had to learn from your mistakes through experience. How far down this road would you have gotten if a group of "more advanced" players had beaten you down for asking a stupid question the way some here slap around some of the n00bs?

- one of the things that first attracted me to the OLD, old tubenet was the sense of camaraderie. It didn't seem to matter the level of the poster. I know of several players that were inspired to return to the instrument just off of what they read here. I'm not sure that happens much anymore. We come off as a nasty bunch.

I come here for this:

Not this:

Online, your words are all you have to present yourself. Shouldn't you try and look your best?

An interesting statement.

I took a sales course a few years ago dealing with this exact message. What I learned is this:

80% of communication is body language and facial expression
15% of communication is vocal inflexion
5% of communication is the actual words

So in an online forum or e-mail, you are removing 95% of the traditional communication cues that we rely upon in daily life to make an accurate appraisal of what a message is. In a forum like this, you have to make your message crystal-clear using words. You can't assume that the gist of the message is coming through, because it likely isn't.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

A few excerpts from this thread:

• lower the boom
• hazing
• throwing a bucket of cold water
• denigrated
• jerks
• hindering the potential learning
• jump down the throats
• extraordinarily crappy attitudes
• bitch slap them with your version of "reality"
• tell them they are an idiot
• I'm going to tell it like it is and too bad if you can't take it
• I'm not going to be called stupid
• needless piss and vinegar
• smack-down
• flame war
• foul obnoxious manner
• willingness to be mean for the sake of being mean
• make an *** of themselves
• beaten you down
• slap around some of the n00bs
• nasty bunch

These are all being used by various posters to describe other posters, or the debate in general. Funny part is, these words and phrases have all been aimed at those determined to be "mean-spirited" and "uncivil."

If you truly believe the discussion here has risen to the level these words and phrases would suggest, I won't bother trying to change your mind. I don't see it, but perhaps my glasses are a different shade of rose than yours. In any case, it is needless to bally it back and forth any longer, at least in my opinion.

Or perhaps some of us (me, at times, included) could learn not to artificially "puff up" the argument with such words and phrases. I for one will attempt in the future to modify the tone of my posts to be less acerbic. I would hope others would be a bit less sensitive and read posts in the spirit they are intended (or, at the very least, ask for clarification before assuming a negative intent...that goes on way too much around here).

[TMurphy]

A few excerpts from this thread:

• lower the boom
• taunt
• hazing
• throwing a bucket of cold water
• denigrated
• jerks
• hindering the potential learning
• jump down the throats
• extraordinarily crappy attitudes
• requiring some rite of passage
• bitch slap them with your version of "reality"
• tell them they are an idiot
• I'm going to tell it like it is and too bad if you can't take it
• pissing match
• I'm not going to be called stupid
• needless piss and vinegar
• smack-down
• flame war
• foul obnoxious manner
• willingness to be mean for the sake of being mean
• make an *** of themselves
• beaten you down
• slap around some of the n00bs
• nasty bunch

These are all being used by various posters to describe other posters, or the debate in general. Funny part is, these words and phrases have all been aimed at those determined to be "mean-spirited" and "uncivil."

If you truly believe the discussion here has risen to the level these words and phrases would suggest, I won't bother trying to change your mind. I don't see it, but perhaps my glasses are a different shade of rose than yours. In any case, it is needless to bally it back and forth any longer, at least in my opinion.

Or perhaps some of us (me, at times, included) could learn not to artificially "puff up" the argument with such words and phrases. I for one will attempt in the future to modify the tone of my posts to be less acerbic. I would hope others would be a bit less sensitive and read posts in the spirit they are intended (or, at the very least, ask for clarification before assuming a negative intent...that goes on way too much around here).

I'm responding to this because I am the one who used the words "flame war," I think, and would like to clarify that. I was not accusing anyone, nor was I describing anyone in particular. I was merely explaining my way of dealing with things...if I read something I strongly disagree with, I will usually ignore the post entirely--unless I think the information being presented to be harmful in some way ("I find that cramming the mouthpiece into my face really helps with my high range, everyone should try it" for a hypothetical example). I do this because I don't need or want to be dragged into a fight, online or in reality. I tend to get along pretty well with most people, and I find the key to that is to simply not sweat the small stuff.

Otherwise, I agree with you entirely. I don't think the discourse is really all that mean, even if people seem to play "dogpile on the newbie" once in a while. I think if people just let the stupid stuff go, or just ignored it completely, the occasional obnoxious troll-thread would vanish off the front page, rather than resurface every day.

But then, if that happened, it wouldn't be the internet, would it? I for one am just glad TubeNet is populated with people who type in real English. The second internet speak becomes the norm for discourse around here, I'm gone.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Understood, TM, and I didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular; rather, my post was a comment about the trend in general.

See, I don't see a discussion about a tuba-related problem a "fight," and I suppose I don't understand why the threads escalate as easily as they do. The only thing I can try to do is not add to the general negative karma that so many other posters see and try to be as supportive as possible.

[sloan]

If you look at my account I joined one day after Rick Denney did. However due to the fact that he has a lot more knowledge than me he has posted 20 more times than I have.

There's a possibility that's NOT the reason.

[sloan]

Ray, I do know that words have meaning, I use word choice (diction) especially in teaching.

My GPA going into my senior year hear is nearly perfect, plus all As in english. I dont spend hours editing posts like i did my 24 page stravinsky paper or my 30 page single spaced "dissertation" on tuba literature (available through email if you want it)

30 pages does not a dissertation make.

[sloan]

Okay, okay.... is TubaShaman a troll? You kind of sound like a troll.

Does Sean Shed in the Woods?

[sloan]

Look, i dont edit these posts.

Perhaps you should?

[sloan]

Why are we having a pissing match between a young'un and some old'uns in the thread where I'm complaining about it? Stop it.

All together now...with feeling:

"You don't always get what you waaant..."

[TonyTuba]

Everyone thank Doc for reminding us.... Peace thru Beer!!!!

[sloan]

I should not have posted my gpa post, but im not going to be called stupid without backing it up

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've reread the entire thread and can't find one instance where anyone has called you stupid, James. Or even implied it. The regulars here don't do that.

Perhaps we should start? We've tried everything else.

Question: is James ignorant, or apathetic?

[sloan]

A few excerpts from this thread:

• lower the boom
• taunt
• hazing
• throwing a bucket of cold water
• denigrated
• jerks
• hindering the potential learning
• jump down the throats
• extraordinarily crappy attitudes
• requiring some rite of passage
• bitch slap them with your version of "reality"
• tell them they are an idiot
• I'm going to tell it like it is and too bad if you can't take it
• pissing match
• I'm not going to be called stupid
• needless piss and vinegar
• smack-down
• flame war
• foul obnoxious manner
• willingness to be mean for the sake of being mean
• make an *** of themselves
• beaten you down
• slap around some of the n00bs
• nasty bunch

And the horse you rode in on!